From the Alvin and Rosalie Sara Check studio.

PBS Kansas presents Empowering Seniors.

Welcome to Empowering Seniors.

I'm your host, Katherine Ambrose.

On this episode, we're going to talk about scams.

And just for being smart when it comes to aging and the law.

And we'll just see where it takes us.

We have Tony Mattivi, director of the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

I'm so excited to have you in the studio with us today.

Thanks, Katherine.

Pleasure to be here.

I know you're traveling all over Kansas, and for you to make this special stop in Wichita to be on the show.

We really appreciate it.

Glad to do it.

Thanks for the invitation.

So we're all about equipping, educating, empowering seniors.

And I thought it would be great to hear a little bit about what you're doing as the director of the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

at the KBI, we, often don't have the resources to do everything that I would like us to be able to do.

Our investigative priorities are violent crime, public corruption, crimes against children and organized crime, which in Kansas right now means drugs and specifically fentanyl.

So, helping protect our seniors isn't one of our investigative priorities, but it's something that I'm committed to, something that I think all of our folks, are committed to.

And so I'm happy to have the opportunity to talk about it.

I can tell you that I worry very much about my 82 year old mom, and the folks, especially because of internet access and how much of our lives are online.

I worry about not just the things that she has access to, but the people who have access to her through that online access.

You know, the more we as a society go online, the more of our stuff we put online, the more online access we have, the more vulnerable we are to bad actors online.

And that's probably my biggest concern with regard to our seniors right now is all the scams that are out there.

The scams are just out of control, and especially if people get to the point where they're maybe isolated and maybe no longer quite has on top of things as they were, they can get just get confused by some of the social media out there and the things online.

The opposite end of the spectrum is they forget to or stop paying attention to their email accounts, and then they can lose track and have things not keep their insurance covered.

And that's that's the online factor is so instrumental to our life today.

It is.

And you know, we can talk about some of the specific scams that we see.

But I'll tell you that a common thread, there are a couple of common threads that run through those different scams.

One is they prey on the loneliness of our seniors.

They prey on their lack of technological or technical sophistication.

And they prey on the fact that these are folks who are well-established in life.

And as a result, they have substantial savings accounts.

And that's what these folks are targeting.

Recognize those vulnerabilities of lack of technological sophistication and loneliness and isolation?

Absolutely.

And loneliness really can just kind of cause your cognitive decline.

To, you know, really take off.

And so I'm really concerned about sometimes aging in place and making sure that you're surrounded by other people that kind of know what's going on.

And you're getting that social stimulation and nutrition.

But let's talk about some of the scams.

Sure.

And there's romance scams too, which sometimes we see seniors kind of actively participating, like maybe if they really thought about it or wanted to believe it was a scam.

That sometimes there's almost this willingness to believe that they have a 22 year old fiancee in another country.

I hate to say it, but you know, your soulmate is not somebody you're going to find online, right?

Especially a senior.

One of the difficulties that we have, communicating with these folks is unless you see them face to face, that's probably not the person that you think you're dealing with, right?

The person that you think you're dealing with is probably very different than the person that you're actually dealing with.

On the other end of that computer, the fake photos, not even the gender you think it you think just really be it could be organized crime, in fact, because of the money involved, the money that's out there.

It could be organized crime.

It's probably not a 22 year old girl.

It's probably a 46 year old Nigerian guy or a Russian, you know, a Russian male.

That's that's statistically that's probably who it is, right?

That is so vast.

And then one of the really troubling things about that is the people who perpetrate these scams are people in countries where they know we can't get to them.

So that's one of the things that makes these scams so incredibly heartbreaking to deal with from a law enforcement perspective, is we have somebody who's very well established in life.

They probably have a sizable or at least a significant savings account.

That's what they've put at risk.

That's what they've lost.

And the chances of us getting it back are almost zero, because these people are operating in countries where we can't get to them, and the country that they're in is not going to be of any assistance to us in trying to track them down.

And I'd like to just share.

I know that anyone can be scammed.

It's just that sometimes seniors like you said, they just have more money available to them.

And so when they're scammed, it could could be more money.

And really, I want to follow up on your point about the fact that it could be anyone.

I have a very dear cousin, so I'm, I'm very fortunate to be from a large family.

My mom is the youngest of 12.

I have 67 first cousins on my mom's side of the family.

I'm about midway.

But I have a cousin who's older than me.

She's about.

So I'm 60.

She's probably about 13, 14 years older than me.

This is a smart woman.

This is a retired business executive, and she called me recently because she had been scammed and she had lost tens of thousands of dollars.

So it can happen literally to anyone.

And that's one of the things that's so unfortunate about it.

And a lot of times we see seniors are keeping it a secret that something's going on.

But even ones family or let's say, executive directors at Senior Living get involved, it can be very difficult to even convince the person that they are being actively scammed on an ongoing basis.

We know that fraud against the elderly, especially online fraud.

We know that it is significantly underreported.

And I can tell you from my personal experience, was so different, so difficult for my cousin even to call and tell me about it.

You know, let alone talk to law enforcement, open up to law enforcement so we know they're embarrassed about it, makes it doubly sad because we recognize that it could happen to anybody.

So I, I love that because someone in their 60s can be embarrassed or at any age be embarrassed.

But when you're in your 80s, you may have family that's putting a lot of pressure on you and thinking that you're no longer with it and not understanding it could could happen to anyone, and they probably know it's going to feed into that.

Right.

Yeah.

So let's talk about other things that maybe are underreported.

And that is rather than stranger danger going across continents.

Talk about people you do know in real life.

Your next door neighbors, your family, stepchildren that maybe joined your family in later years.

We just see so much, manipulation and abuse and sometimes it's reported and it doesn't go anywhere because the victim kind of goes along with it.

Right.

So just like there are a myriad of different scams and different types and possibilities of scams, There's also a myriad of ways in which someone that the senior knows, is close to you, whether it's a family member, a trusted friend.

Unfortunately, there is an almost unlimited number of ways in which those folks can take advantage of our elderly as well.

And, if the victim understandably isn't cooperating with law enforcement because of the close nature of this relationship, that makes it very difficult for us to prosecute as well.

So with a scam, the difficulty is finding the person overseas and going after them without having the assistance of the foreign government.

It's sort of the opposite end of the spectrum.

When we see fraud or abuse by a friend or a family member, but they're the problem often is that the victim doesn't want to cooperate because it's their son's stepson, nephew, neighbor, whatever.

So we have that issue to deal with as well.

Yeah, it might be who they feel is their lifeline to the world or the person that they love the most, and they just don't want to hear that and they don't want drama.

We talked just a moment ago with the online scams about loneliness and vulnerability, and the same thing applies to fraud and abuse by someone very close to you.

We're all aging every day.

So when it comes to our aged population.

Okay?

Speak for yourself, Katherine.

I'm talking about even my newborn granddaughter.

She's getting older every day.

Yes, yes.

Then let's talk about the aged population and the loneliness and vulnerability.

Just from what, you know, in the work you've done throughout your life, your own family situation, what would your natural instinct be about how to combat that?

for me, the key is to surround myself with people that are youthful at heart, who are energetic, who are engaged, and who want just as badly as I want to be out there doing things and staying active and staying involved, that that's the way I look at it.

Okay.

Very good.

And so for your 82 year old mother, what are some of the things that you're doing to help her avoid loneliness and vulnerability?

I don't have to worry about it with my mom.

Fortunately, I don't with my mother either.

My mom's friends are mostly my age, and when I call my mom and say, hey, mom, what are you doing?

How's it going?

What have you been up to?

She says, oh, I just went on a hike up Old Cold Camp Road.

Oh, I went snowshoeing.

I just got back from a fitness class.

So I'm very fortunate when it comes to my mom.

I have an excellent role model who's very fit, very active.

I mentioned she's the youngest of 12.

Most most of her siblings lived well into their 80s and many into their 90s.

Her dad lived into his 90s.

Even on my dad's side, my grandfather lived to be 88.

So I'm lucky because I come from really good stock and I don't plan on slowing down anytime soon.

That's really great because this is kind of a career, transition for you.

How long have you been with the KBI?

Two and a half years.

Okay.

And what were you doing before that?

So I spent, It's funny.

I'm sort of on my third career.

I dropped out of college and became an EMT and then a paramedic.

And so I worked for a number of years as a paramedic, including while I finished my undergraduate degree and while I went to law school.

And then as soon as I got out of law school, I went to work as a prosecutor.

And I did that for almost 30 years.

and then, I had a job in the private sector after I retired from the Department of Justice.

And during that period of time, I ran for attorney general unsuccessfully, lost.

But the person I lost to was attorney general Kovac.

And when he won the general election, he came back to me.

And we had developed a very good relationship during the campaign.

He came back and asked me if I'd be interested in taking this job with the KBI.

And I'm so glad he made that offer.

It was very gracious of him.

I, I'm so glad I accepted because all throughout my life thought it was each job I had.

I thought that was the best job I had ever had.

Now I realize now I have the best job I could have, could ever have because I love it.

I wake up smiling every morning and skip off to work.

That is really great.

I love to hear about people's life journey and and the different things that they can accomplish in a lifetime, and the idea of just thinking about the next thing that kind of brings me to the theory about, rewire instead of retire, and how you can just keep yourself younger at heart and physically, mentally or younger.

Or let's just say healthier.

And by sharing your wisdom and sharing your talents, I can tell you I'm not a person who, envisions retiring.

I personally envision a little different work life balance.

I have three wonderful kids.

Mostly grown and out of the house.

I don't have any grandkids yet, but I'm very much looking forward to that.

And I hope that by the time I have grandkids that I'm able to spend a lot of time with them, because my work life balance will be a little more favorable to spending time with them and away from the office.

But right now, I love what I do.

And it's what inspires me, and it makes me happy to get up in the morning and go to work.

That's really awesome.

And I'm really, really intrigued by the things that you're working on because these these impact everyone.

What's going on with children and organized crime, they affect all of society.

And so you want to fill us in a little bit on what's going on with, your children, what you're trying to do to help children.

Oh, what we're trying to do to help children.

Sure.

We have, What's happening online in the United States and in the world right now is dangerous to seniors, but it's just as dangerous, if not more dangerous to children.

The amount of what we call aecac internet crimes against children is skyrocketing.

Those are the cases that involve distribution of child sexual abuse material.

and these cases are so troubling because we see just horrific, horrific images of children being traded, being distributed online.

But sometimes folks focus on the fact that we're talking about images.

And I tell them that it's not just the images that we're worried about.

We know from looking backward at all of our cases that when we have somebody that's trafficking in child pornography images, child sexual abuse material online, 52% of the time those folks have actual contact with a real child.

That's what makes these cases so dangerous is they're not just the images, it's that these are folks who have contact with children.

And oftentimes there are people in jobs that give them access to children every single day.

Not long ago, we did a search warrant where we raided the home of a person who was, a teacher at an alternative high school.

So this is somebody who didn't just have access to young people.

He had access to very troubled young people who would be very easy prey for him.

So we see lots of those scenarios.

Teachers, coaches, I don't want to paint with a broad brush.

You know, I'm very, very grateful for the wonderful teachers that my kids had when they're growing up.

But they are folks who have direct contact with kids, and we have to be very, very careful about the backgrounds and the activities of that population of adults.

Absolutely.

Well, I'm talking about broad brush.

I also want to say that I don't want to see seniors scared of the internet and scared of being online or that their family is, and in fact, I encourage them to participate, at least in family activities where you're sharing photos together, you know, on a family thread or you're on Facebook because you miss out if you're not participating in those things.

Right?

That that's different than thinking you have a lover in Facebook Messenger that needs money to get to the country.

Well, there's a difference between being paranoid and being aware, right?

Like you, I don't want them to be afraid of being online.

I want them to be aware, and I want them to have a high enough index of suspicion that when they're approached by somebody, offering them money, that's probably just a prelude for them asking you for money, right?

When you get approached by somebody online with a romantic interest, it's probably not the person that they're representing themselves to be.

The same truth going out right?

And being out in public.

We want people to go out.

We want them to be engaged.

Well, they're vulnerable out there, right?

I don't want them to be paranoid of that, but we want them to be aware.

We want them to have situational awareness, understand when the situation that they're going in might be a little bit more dangerous.

Be prepared to defend yourself.

I recommend oftentimes a panic alarm and pepper spray.

For older folks, things that you can use to defend yourself fairly easily.

But the main thing is situational awareness when you go out.

So don't be afraid.

Don't not go out.

Just be aware, Tony, share with us a little bit more about the CVI.

Oh, sure.

I love talking about the CVI.

The CVI was established in 1939 when two private organizations went to the legislature and asked for help with the two most pressing criminal justice issues of the day.

So really, interestingly, the two private organizations were the Kansas Bankers Association and the Kansas Livestock Association, because the two most pressing criminal justice issues of the day in 1939 were bank robberies and cattle theft.

That is fascinating.

So the KBI was created.

So it was those two organizations, along with the Peace Officers Association, went to the legislature, and the KBI was created to be a resource for local law enforcement.

Whenever they had a situation that exceeded their capabilities.

That's very much the reason for which we exist today.

We continue to provide resources for local law enforcement agencies whenever they have a situation that exceeds their capability.

So a lot of people don't know.

Katherine.

We have about 428 law enforcement organizations in Kansas.

So we have 105 counties, right?

One of them doesn't have a sheriff's department and has a combined police and sheriff's department.

So we have 104 sheriff's departments.

The other 300 plus law enforcement agencies or police departments.

Well, of those 428 departments, 70% of them have ten or fewer officers and 50% have five or fewer officers.

Wow.

So when one of those departments has a situation that exceeds their capabilities, whether it's a homicide, public corruption, a series of violent rapes, a spike in overdoses in their community, something like that.

They pick up the phone and they call the KBI for help.

And I wish that we could say yes every time one of those law enforcement leaders calls.

Unfortunately, we don't have the resources for that.

And that's why we prioritize.

And I mentioned to you, our investigative priorities are violent crime, public corruption, crimes against children and organized crime, which right now means drugs.

But that's sort of the sad reality.

Somebody often people ask me what my biggest surprise has been since I've been in the job, and it really is how under-resourced we are compared to what is needed out there across the state.

That having been said, we have a wonderful organization.

I'm so proud of our people and so proud of what we do.

We have 88,000mi to cover in Kansas, a population of well over 3 million people, and we continue every day to do our best to be the resource that we can for those local law enforcement agencies when they need help.

That's amazing.

I love all of these statistics, too.

Are you somehow related to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or is that completely separate?

Completely separate?

We have similar roles in some respects.

The, the FBI has their role in law enforcement.

They investigate some of the things that we do, overlap with them.

Some of the things we do are very different.

And I'll give you an example.

KBI was started because of the number of bank robberies that were taking place in Kansas and the fact that often a robbery isn't an isolated event, it's a part of a spree.

And local departments weren't, weren't capable of operating at, of catching criminals that were operating across state lines.

Well, for decades now, we haven't done bank robbery investigations because that's an area that the FBI got into.

Right?

So we haven't had to do them.

It's fascinating right now because we're seeing a major change in the law enforcement landscape in the United States and federally in particular, as this administration sort of reached reprioritize and shifts funding, we're seeing an emphasis swing away from things that we've done historically, what the feds have done historically, and we're seeing a lot more emphasis on immigration.

So one of our concerns when we see that is if the FBI shifts their investigative priorities and stops doing bank robbery investigations, is the KBI going to have to get back into that business?

And if we are, then I'm going to be back at the legislature asking them for more resources to sort of pick up the slack, as the feds shift their priorities that, you know, you're too much about bank robberies, but apparently they're still out there.

You'd be surprised at how many of them are still taking place.

Yeah.

Wow.

Horrible idea.

Bad way to make money, but we seem pretty easy way to get caught.

I would think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is.

And like, you're the corruption and the human trafficking and drugs and this, these are things that seniors are very worried about and they're worried about their legacy.

They're worried about, their families and younger generations.

Yeah.

This general, I'll tell you, I'm I'm glad that my kids are pretty much out of the house and well-established.

I would be very nervous right now as the parent of a junior high schooler or a high schooler because of what we're seeing with fentanyl, the I really can't overstate the nature of the fentanyl problem.

Fentanyl poisonings, what we used to call overdoses.

Fentanyl poisonings are now the leading cause of death of Americans under 40.

If you think about that for a minute.

More than auto accidents, more than gun violence, more than mental health and suicide, the leading cause of death of Americans under 40.

And I can tell you, there is no part of this state that hasn't been impacted by fentanyl.

You'll not talk to a single sheriff in Kansas who hasn't seen fentanyl in their communities.

And it's so incredibly dangerous.

And we have to educate the kids that you can't expect with drugs the way that maybe their parents could or even their grandparents could when they were growing up, because it's so incredibly dangerous.

Wow.

So and we I know that that's not something that I've seen usually important.

Yeah.

I mean, it really is important to to the next generations, the generations that follow them, their grandkids.

And it's about, you know, being good grandparents and good parents for as long as you possibly can be.

Absolutely.

And just having that awareness, and it sounds like it's something we need to hear more of.

We think we hear a lot about it, but apparently we need to hear more about it.

You know, I, I talk a lot about fentanyl.

I, I, I don't turn down an invitation to come into a community, whether it's a school or a community organization.

If they invite me to come talk about fentanyl, I do it.

But I'll tell you what.

We have somebody in the KBI who is a much more compelling storyteller than I am about fentanyl, because it's one of our career drug agents who lost his 18 year old son to a fentanyl poisoning.

So the this this agent has spent his entire adult life combating drug crimes in southeast Kansas.

And a little over two years ago, woke up on his wife's birthday and found their 18 year old son dead in his bedroom in the basement from a fentanyl poisoning.

That's terrible.

And people ask me all the time, what's the biggest myth about fentanyl?

And I tell them there are three.

It can't happen in my community.

It can't happen in my family, and it can't happen to me.

And if it could happen to somebody at the KBI, it can happen to anybody.

No kidding.

What I'm thinking, too, is that a lot of empowered seniors are organizers for speakers in different, different places, volunteers in schools, etc.

and so that's really a good tip.

I want to end here.

I want to talk about your mom again.

Okay.

And the fact that you said that she's a great example, that she's leading, a legacy for that for younger generations on really how to have an active, an active life and just keep having fun.

So how important is that to you?

And how do you intend to hopefully for your future grandchildren, continue that legacy.

want my grandkids to enjoy coming to hang out with grandpa.

I want to be able to take them to do things.

I want to be the, the the role model for them about getting outside, staying engaged, being lifelong learners.

And continuing to be, somebody who goes and does and not somebody who sits and watches.

Fantastic.

Tony, thank you so much for being on the Empowering Seniors Show.

We really appreciate it.

Glad to do it.

Thanks for having me.

And thank you for tuning in.

If you have questions about this topic or anything else that we cover, we hope you'll reach out to EmpoweringSeniors@kpts.org or give us a call at 316-686-4500.

I'm Katherine Ambrose, and I'll see you on the next Empowering Seniors.

This.

On the next empowering seniors, we're talking to the director of the Kansas Burea of Investigation, Tony Mattivi.

I'm Katherine Ambrose, and that's on the next empowering Seniors.

Tonight on empowering seniors, we're talking to the director of the Kansas Burea of Investigation, Tony Mattivi.

I'm Katherine Ambrose, and that's tonight on empowering seniors.