From the Alvin and Rosalie Sara Check studio PBS Kansas presents Empowering Seniors Welcome to Empowering Seniors I'm your host Katherine Ambrose And today we're talking about the Scammer who Loved Me a book that's going to teach us tips and tricks on how to protect your heart and protect your money Meet Mary Winter the author of this book and we're so delighted to have her bring these important tips to people people need to know Mary thank you so much for your work Well thank you for having me So is this the first book you've written or have you been writing before this?

I have been a writer since I can remember When I was a teenager I wrote songs and I wrote poems And about ten years ago I wrote a novel about a woman that solves crime with the tools of technology writing's always been in my life And that's really how I came to write this Very good And so you're telling Sharene Oldham story?

Yes And how did you two meet each other?

Well Sharene is my sister in law Oh I met Sharene when I met my husband And we've always been talking about different things We'd like to do together And this is finally what clicked for us tell us how this story came together how you two ended up writing this book together Sharene started a business online and all of the people that started to follow her or many of them were scammers and she would complain to me about that and it lit a fire under me I was angry that here she is a senior woman trying to use the talents and the wisdom she's gained over a lifetime and these people are trying to take her money away And it just it just hit me wrong And I thought we have to do something about this So Sharene and I had a conversation of about five minutes We decided to write the book and I said and we can go to senior centers and we can tell people about it and try to raise awareness about this problem And to me that's really interesting that in a five minute conversation you decide to do something so big What did that feel like to you to just have five minutes and you're like we just decided to do it I was excited I was excited it gave a direction to my writing and that book just started to pour out of me Honestly And then the added component that you thought will go to a senior center So we'll go reach out to people to try to save them save them from having this happen What kind of response have you gotten from people?

It's interesting The majority of people believe this will never happen to them And we've learned through our research and also meeting actual victims that it can happen to anyone And why is that?

How is it that it can happen to anyone and that people can be surprised that they might fall for it when they think they are maybe immune to it?

I think it has to do with the time of life the situation you find yourself in If you are a senior woman who is a widow who is trying to start a business online who has a profile on Facebook or Instagram that shows a certain level of wealth shows a certain level of resources You're going to be profiled by scammers and people don't understand just how organized those scammers are You're scared me Seriously?

Wow They should Yeah Interesting that they targeted her because she was trying to give advice on building wealth So it's so interesting who they choose to target but also romance scams So you've just given me the book and I'm so excited about it So the scammer who love me So I'm assuming you're talking about romance scams And you are warning people about that correct Correct That the whole focus of this book is romance scams Of course there are many kinds of scams but romance scams are very detailed They're very contrived They have to do with a very specific profiling that happens Social engineering is what is happening and not in a good way Many products for instance that we have in the United States use social engineering to find their customers Right Well these scammers have created a method that is full proof for them They will look at people's profiles online and look at what they love What's important to them They will construct a false persona of that person that might be the most desirable to to the person that they're trying to scam It's something that's been going on particularly in Nigeria for many many years And they have made it into an art form And people don't understand that when they get that initial Hello I admired your your profile or I'm new to Facebook and I'm wondering if you might be my friend or any number of get to know you introductions And once you start that conversation you might consider them to be a nice person a good person And as time goes by you might look forward to their daily comments And within a few weeks they may be saying you know I really missed you I hope you have a great day And and I just I just feel something special when I'm with you And that is what creates the bond And when that bond increases then a crisis arrives they may need you to help them because they live on an oil rig and it's just blown up and they need a way off of it They may need you to pay for their their child's schooling They may have been in an accident And they need you to send money as soon as they can And you being a decent person may say I should help them I should help them And one of the cardinal sins we write in the book never ever send money to someone you've never met Because once that happens it will never end then they're then they're really going to get their hooks into you So we hear a lot about these scammers that'll say oh I'm going to come live with you I just need to get my visa You know I need to travel to America Yes And you know I have this problem and that problem and so people will start thinking oh I'm in love with this beautiful woman I have all these photos of her and I need to find out if she can move into my assisted living apartment with me I mean these are the things that we're hearing Yes And that people really believe these romances even though they've never seen them in person but they really believe it's the real person Yes In fact I met a woman in an assisted living who would like to enter contests online And one night she got a phone call that she had won $28 million And that turned into a conversation where they headquarters of the prize giveaway would call her every night to help her get ready to be able to receive the money And then the bond was formed and soon they were telling her every night I love you Talk to you tomorrow And then they needed her to set up a special bank account to receive the money And she couldn't tell her family about it And so she set up the bank account and then it went to Well the first hurdle will be $10000 that we need you to send so that we can know that this is a legitimate bank account And she had spent over $40000 And what she didn't realize was she was in an abusive relationship with a criminal She believed it was someone who loved and cared for her Yeah And the playing on over our emotions is it's the Seminole point And it has to do with something called love bombing Love bombing And I I think from some of the seniors that I've talked to that sometimes they have no idea this is a scam But I think sometimes they do They just don't want to believe it They want to go along with the romance And that's very common I've met several seniors who get close to their scammer know They know that it's wrong that it's not really happening the way the scammers telling them But you know how many how many stories how many songs do we have about telling sweet little lies?

You know that's that's what's happening It's making that senior feel young again It's making them feel someone cares about me in a romantic way And I think they're willing to pay for that Interesting Yes Mary this is so intriguing So next we're going to talk to Sharene about her personal story Yes Now we're going to talk with Sharene Oldham who's the inspiration behind this book and loved this story Sharene thank you so much for being here Thank you what did you think when you started being approached when you started being targeted?

Well first of all I was on Facebook TikTok YouTube those type of things and doing videos just like you're doing here to advertise my financial coaching business But and as all good coaches should do if somebody likes what they see I would thank them for liking that and ask them if they needed any help I do a consultation that's for free for 15 minutes Talk to that Well that that didn't last too long They they said could we move over to one of the private places such as WhatsApp?

Zanny And there's a few others I only did WhatsApp and I did Zanny for a little bit but I got off of that And Sammy is used more by people that are posing as military and and in that course I had three death threats So that's why I got off zayani and just stayed with WhatsApp And I haven't even heard of that one before Yeah On WhatsApp they you know they started out wanted to know about me friend me you know and I realized quickly that they probably weren't interested in my business But you know I am a widow of 13 years so I thought okay I'll just have fun and talk to them my downfall was I didn't vet them enough at first I often got in the conversations and then tried to vet them It's kind of difficult Sometimes they use first names John David David whatever So you can't really research Yeah James William And they're sending you fake photos and Right Telling you all kinds of things Yes Very confusing Even on WhatsApp I had a couple of them call me Yeah Video chat It looked like the person I thought they were posing as But that person had presence on Facebook So he he had done podcasting so there was a lot of material they could clone They cloned his voice This guy had an English accent because he was my What I thought was my friend had been born in England and he now lives in Canada so there's kind of a different than my accent But it sounded like him They're really smooth and you know that's they they start with information and and about them what you like to do What's your favorite food?

Oh they always ask what did you have to eat?

Oh wow And that's kind of a flag when they're always so concerned every day about what you ate See if they're from third world country that doesn't have much food That's why they're so interested in your food intake Not for my health I would imagine that their clients their targets probably like to talk about food Almost seems like a normal thing and Oh I made this or I had this Yeah and it's just an easy way to get a conversation flowing And then you know like in Europe I don't know about Canada but in Europe it's very common to use WhatsApp That's what they use And and someone it's international It's a lot easier to communicate through WhatsApp So what a shame that they are tricking people that way But you so so you thought you were maybe having a great conversation with a European now Canadian?

Yeah You gotta watch out for this Canadians I'm telling you But who do you think this person really was?

Did you find out?

Yes I did after talking to him from April until Well in fact just today he tried to contact me but Oh yeah Well we're in the studio Even though I've blocked him a number of times but it turned out he let me He revealed himself he was a gentleman from Lagos Nigeria only 48 years old not the original 62 year old And he was supporting seven people and in fact one of them was a four month old baby So while I was talking he had a baby and his baby mom was living with him and she was much younger and she wanted to go back to her dad because she wanted to go back to school And so that I believe that is truly real When I was talking to him clear back in the April on on he was sometimes his wording in the WhatsApp was impeccable which I would expect from a podcaster Right But sometimes it was all messed up Not using the correct pronunciation not using the correct wording kind of backwards and all that So that's why I feel that this guy although he said he was just his family I have a feeling that some of his family members his sisters he had two of them may have been involved in this and they didn't have as good a grammar as he did He had you know they do teach English in Nigeria as a second language And I'm amazed because I don't speak anything but English And they had a little bit of Spanish in college and didn't learn a thing So I'm amazed at how many languages they can speak But anyway that is what this guy had said And so I don't know if he was in an what you call an HK hustle kingdom or not I did see pictures after he revealed himself he took pictures of himself in his apartment and it looked as nice as the studio does that Of course you don't know for sure if that was real And I don't know what's real or not You don't know?

That's what as a victim I do not know And so what would be your advice to people?

Probably just not to engage in these conversations at all It's very dangerous game And you mentioned Hustle Kingdom Tell us what that means Well that is these these people are groomed at a very young age you know like ten or so and they're groomed and they're part of their grooming Is everybody in the USA is rich and filthy rich and they just have money to give And that's embedded in their minds So they don't see that they're doing anything wrong And like I pointed out to this guy when he revealed himself do you realize you just violated?

Probably all of the Ten Commandments because he claims they always claim they're good Christians right?

Okay Well number one you're stealing from me or trying to number two you're caught doing all this emotional stuff that you love bombing me and all that and that's great But when I I find out you're not real it's devasted 18 and for some people it's so devastating that they get depressed They well some of them have even gone out in the backyard and taken a gun and because they are so depressed and and that they were scammed And it's it's just take such an emotional toll And now we're back with our conversation with Mary Mary So you mentioned love bombing And that is exactly what Sharene experienced So tell us what that means Well Love bombing is a series of texts or just affectionate gestures It might be photographs It might be a little heart And it might And And the text underneath might say something like You're really getting under my skin I think I'm in love with you I want you to take very good care of yourself today so that when we finally meet in person we can share our love forever Wow That's one example right off the top of my head But there as you can imagine there are thousands of them And the scammers will use a kind of a slow build up They'll start with friends they'll go to romance and they will continue those love bombs until the crisis occurs where they ask for money And that's the cycle of love bombing Now many many people on the first time of being asked for money will say I'm not going to send you money I'm not going to send you money at that point you might not hear from your scammer for a few days because they want you to miss them And you may And then they'll come back and say I'm so sorry I asked you for money It's just that I'm in such a terrible spot and I needed help so badly And I'm still missing you and I still love you And I still hope you're having a good day And then the love bombs continue and the grooming continues And it's it's quite the bad romance Wow Yeah Romance You know in sales salespeople are taught to ask three different times So I'm like relating this to sales like okay we had the flinch She says I'm not going to pay And so now we're coming back with an apology and she may change her mind and send the money now Or she starts here or whoever this person is starts warming her up again And and now they're asking or if they're victim is more by the way they call their victims clients So now if their client is more cerebral and asks questions about how can we structure this so that we both win or are we in a business or are we not?

They will begin to make business plans They'll say I thought about what you said and I think you're right I think I can solve this problem on my own I'm going to go to the bank and ask for money And then of course it'll come back to the point of I've done all this and I still need to ask you for money Those conversations happen also like I say they're very tailored to the person the client and it's really sad You know when you're in high school did you hear you are meeting the opposite sex You know you're meeting people all the time and it gets a little harder and harder throughout your life By the time you're in your 70s and beyond Really hard to meet real life people Yes Especially if you don't really know where to start Yeah And so I can see how it would be easy for people to kind of fall for this and just have that romantic notion in their mind and like their participate in the creation of this fantasy And what I'm hoping to do is raise people's digital literacy so that they understand that the internet is like the Wild West There's very little controls on it And yet you know I don't want people to be afraid of the internet because it's so wonderful It's opened up so much opportunity Absolutely right It's the literacy piece of it because those of us that are very involved let's say on Facebook already we wouldn't fall for that stuff because we understand what profile should look like what the email addresses should look like We understand So it's very easy to pick up The scammers and scammers are getting smarter all the time Yes they are They're learning Especially in the area of AI They're deep Fakes are incredible now Yeah In fact the FBI cannot keep up with them at this point Wow so Mary what are some of the first tips you have about digital literacy?

Well one of the most obvious tips is that if you're on Facebook for instance check the followers of the person you're speaking to If they have no followers that's a red flag If they have no posts that's a red flag Another thing that Sharene and I have noticed is that many times scammers will have two first names as their complete name Things like John David Or or Stephen Randolph For some reason that seems to be and they're hijacking good looking people's photos They are and they're using these photos to represent themselves What are some of the other things that you're like okay that's the fake If that photo looks so contrived and that guy is really hot or that woman is really sexy if they're too hot too sexy that there's your sign One of the another thing you can do is go to catfish social catfishcom and put that picture through a filter and they will tell you how many sites it shows up on Wow And if it's on seven 11 200 sites you know it's a scammer They like that photo using it for all their little businesses and clients And this is the point at which the decision is made The client or the victim must decide are those love bombs worth all of this?

Yes And being manipulated like this Yeah These are professionals Well thank you so much for writing this book I hope you get the opportunity to tell your story more and more We would love to It is amazing We live in the most empowered age of all human history Yes but we have to watch out for ourselves Absolutely Just like people always have Yes Well thank you so much for empowering our audience and coming here to share your story and I hope that your story just really gets out there and makes a big money saving heart saving difference for people out there Well you're welcome and thank you so much for having us It's an honor to be here It was our pleasure and such an important topic And thank you for watching I hope this was interesting and helpful for you And if you have questions about this or any of the other topics that we cover or if you have a suggestion for a show please reach out to us at EmpoweringSeniors@kpts.org I'm Katherine Ambrose and I'll see you on the next Empowering Seniors