HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

FEAR AND OUTRAGE IN AMERICA AFTER A WOMAN IS SHOT DEAD BY ICE AGENTS.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS FOR HIS REACTION AND ABOUT TRUMP'S MOVES IN VENICE WELL UP CAN THE SENATE STOP THEM FROM MAKING FURTHER MILITARY INTERVENTIONS?

> >> BEEN SUFFERING IN GAZA, HOMELESS PALESTINIANS FACE HORRENDOUS WINTER CONDITIONS WHILE ISRAEL CONTINUES TO RESTRICT AID.

IT'S SECRETARY-GENERAL WILL JOIN ME.

> >> PLUS, LARA TRUMP'S CRITICS FALLING INTO THIS TRAP?

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD & LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE WARSHAW, KOO & PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AT HOME AND ABROAD, THE ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE PUT UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES FURTHER ON EDGE.

PROTEST IN MINNEAPOLIS TODAY OVER THE HARROWING VIDEOS BROADCAST EVERYWHERE, TAKE A LOOK.

>> NO!

NO!

>> SHOWING THOSE WHO WERE TAKING THE PICTURES, YELLING FOR ICE TO STOP.

IT SHOWS THE FATAL SHOOTING OF AN AMERICAN WOMAN BY AN ICE AGENT TRUMP AND OTHER OFFICIALS DEFENDED THE SHOOTING AS AN ACT OF SELF-DEFENSE, BUT WITNESSES SAY OTHERWISE, AS TO THE CITY'S MAYOR AND THE GOVERNOR.

HERE IS THE MAYOR: >> I HAVE A MESSAGE FOR US.

TO ICE, GET OUT OF MINNEAPOLIS.

WE DO NOT WANT YOU HERE.

>> UNAMBIGUOUS MESSAGE THERE.

MEANWHILE, THE PRESIDENT'S INTERNATIONAL [ INAUDIBLE ] GROW BOLDER, CONTINUING TO INSIST THAT GREENLAND SHOULD BE AMERICA, AND NOW SAYING THAT U. S. OVERSIGHT OF VENEZUELA COULD LAST YEARS.

SENATORS WERE FINALLY BRIEFED BY SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO ON WEDNESDAY WITH A SPLIT EMERGING ALONG PARTY LINES ABOUT THE LEGALITY AND GOALS OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S MILITARY ACTION THERE.

AND THE EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE A MESSAGE FOR THEM, TOO.

POLAND IS URGING THE U. S. CONGRESS TO WEIGH IN ON TRUMP'S AMBITION TO CONTROL GREENLAND, A DANISH TERRITORY AND NATO ALLY.

AND TODAY, FRANCE'S PRESIDENT MACRON HAD A SOBERING WARNING ABOUT RELYING ON AMERICA.

>> Translator: WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF GREAT POWER WITH A REAL TEMPTATION TO DIVIDE UP THE WORLD, AND I BELIEVE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN RECENT MONTHS OR EVEN IN RECENT DAYS HAS DONE NOTHING TO CHANGE THIS OBSERVATION.

AND SO, THAT IS THE GREAT RISKS TO TO THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER IN WHICH LEE WE LIVE.

THE UNITED STATES IS AN ESTABLISHED POWER, BUT ONE THAT IS GRADUALLY TURNING AWAY FROM SOME OF ITS ALLIES AND BREAKING FREE FROM THE INTERNATIONAL RULES THAT UNTIL RECENTLY, IT WAS PROMOTING.

>> NOW THEREFORE, THERE IS MUCH AUTHORITY FOR THE U. S. CONGRESS TO CLAWBACK RIGHT NOW.

A LITTLE EARLIER, SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS JOINED ME JUST BEFORE HE WAS PULLED AWAY FOR A VOTE ON A RESOLUTION THAT WOULD FORCE TRUMP TO SEEK CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL FOR ANY FURTHER MILITARY INTERVENTION AGAINST VENEZUELA.

SENATOR SANDERS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, IT HAS BEEN A VERY, VERY TURBULENT FIRST WEEK TO THIS NEW YEAR.

I WANT TO START BY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN, YOU KNOW, THE AMERICAN BACKYARD RIGHT NOW, AND THAT IS IN MINNEAPOLIS WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN THESE ONGOING CLASHES BETWEEN PROTESTERS AND ICE THE CAUSE OF THIS INCIDENT IN WHICH ICE SHOT DEAD AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, AND THE VIDEO DOES NOT APPEAR TO SHOW THERE WAS ANY NEED FOR THAT.

CAN YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE TO ME WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS, WHAT NEEDS TO BE NEXT STEPS?

>> WELL, LOOK, WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, IT IS WRONG, AND AS USUAL, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS LYING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT OVERALL, IT REFLECTS A POLICY OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY ARE GOING AFTER MANY, MANY -- HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE, OFTEN WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

SOMETIMES AMERICAN CITIZENS.

TO MY MIND, WHAT WE'VE GOT TO DO, AND I THINK MOST AMERICANS UNDERSTAND, IS WE NEED TO MOVE THE COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM, NOT SEND OUT A SMALL ARMY CALLED ICE TO HARASS THE REST, AND YESTERDAY, SHOOT PEOPLE.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS SENT OUT MESSAGES ON HIS WEBSITE, YOU KNOW, SAYING THAT THE WOMAN VIOLENTLY, WILLFULLY, AND VICIOUSLY RAN OVER THE ICE OFFICER, WHICH THE VIDEO DOES NOT SEEM TO SHOW AT ALL.

YOU HAVE HAD KRISTI NOEM, THE DHS SECRETARY, CALLING HER A DOMESTIC TERRORIST.

AND YOU HAVE ICE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, DESCRIBED TO HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED AS A BIT OF A PERSONAL MILITIA FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS.

>> WELL, I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ' LIES IS NOT SOMETHING NEW.

JUST A FEW DAYS AGO ON JANUARY 6th, THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE INSURRECTION WHERE PEOPLE ATTEMPTED TO OVERTHROW THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, DO AWAY WITH AN ELECTION, YOU KNOW, HE REVERSED --MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE GAVE THE OPINION THIS WAS A PEACEFUL PROTEST, BLAMED DEMOCRATS.

IT'S A SCARY SITUATION , AND WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS A VERY WELL ARMED, VERY SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED FORCE OF ICE AGENTS WHO ARE OPERATING UNDER A PRESIDENT WHO IS DOING VERY BAD THINGS.

>> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT OBVIOUSLY HIS SUPPORTERS WILL SAY HE IS DOING VERY GOOD THINGS, BUT YOU ARE GOING INTO A VOTE, YOU JUST TOLD ME, ON A VERY IMPORTANT MATTER, WHICH IS CONGRESS'S OBLIGATIONS AND CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES REGARDING WAR POWERS AND APPROVING AND DISCUSSING THESE KINDS OF THINGS, SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS VOTE?

WILL YOU WIN, DO YOU THINK?

MAXWELL, WE WILL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH, BUT LOOK, HERE IS THE ISSUE.

IN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, IT IS THE CONGRESS THAT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO DECLARE WAR.

THE PRESIDENT -- THIS WAS NOT AN EMERGENCY, THIS IS NOT A SITUATION LIKE PEARL HARBOR OR 9/11, NOBODY ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES, THIS WAS A PREMEDITATED EFFORT, THEY PROBABLY PLANNED IT FOR MONTHS.

CONGRESS WAS NOT ONLY --DO NOT GIVE AUTHORIZATION FOR THIS ACT, THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT SO, THIS IS A PRESIDENT ACTING UNILATERALLY IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION AND THE RULE OF LAW.

WHAT WORRIES ME VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE , IS IF YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO THINKS THAT HE CAN SIMPLY INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY, YOU'RE GIVING A GREEN LIGHT AND A JUSTIFICATION FOR ANY NATION, ANY TERRORIST ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD TO DO THE SAME.

I MEAN, THE GOAL OF WHAT HAS BEEN TRIED SINCE WORLD WAR II, IN WORLD WAR II 50 MILLION PEOPLE DIED, AND LEADERS ALL OVER THE WORLD CAME TOGETHER AND SAID, LOOK, HOW DO WE END THIS HORRIBLE WAR?

DID THEY SUCCEED COMPLETELY?

CERTAINLY NOT.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN A WAR IN EUROPE SINCE PUTIN'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, THAT IS A BIG DEAL.

AND WHAT TRUMP IS BASICALLY SAYING IS, LOOK, I AM POWERFUL, I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT.

IF I WANT VENEZUELA'S OIL, I'M GOING TO GET THEM AS WELL AS OIL.

AND WHAT.

THAT DOES, I THINK, IS MAKE THE WORLD MORE UNSTABLE.

BECAUSE IT IS A JUSTIFICATION FOR PUTIN.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CRITICIZE PUTIN FOR HIS INVASION OF UKRAINE QUESTION WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY TO CHINA IF CHINA GETS INVOLVED IN MILITARY ADVENTURISM OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY?

SO, THAT, TO ME, IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ASPECT OF WHAT TRUMP IS UNLEASHING AROUND THE WORLD, SAYING THAT ANY COUNTRY --YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, UNDERMINING THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, THE INTERNATIONAL RULE OF LAW.

IT IS A SERIOUS CONCERN.

>> SO, YOU GOT A BRIEFING YESTERDAY BY --I THINK IT WAS AN ALL SENATORS BRIEFING BY SECRETARY RUBIO, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE ARE OTHERS BUT >> I DO NOT GO TO THAT BRIEFING, AS A MATTER OF FACT.

>> OH, OKAY.

DID YOU KNOW ABOUT IT?

YEAH, WELL I KNOW WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF IT IS.

THAT MADURO IS A BAD GUY, NO KIDDING THIS GUY IS A DICTATOR, HE IS CORRUPT, HE LOST THE LAST ELECTION.

HE IS ABSOLUTELY A BAD NEWS GUY, AND THAT IS JUSTIFICATION.

OIL WAS "TAKEN FROM THE UNITED STATES. "

YOU KNOW, THE OIL OF VENEZUELA BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA.

HE IS A DRUG DEALER.

WELL, MOST OF THAT STUFF GOES TO EUROPE, IT IS COCAINE.

YOU KNOW, INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY BREAK INTERNATIONAL -- AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, DRUG LAWS.

SO, THERE JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS IS PRETTY WEAK.

BOTTOM LINE IS THE UNITED STATES IS VERY POWERFUL, TRUMP BELIEVES HE CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS.

HE IS WITHDRAWN FROM ALL KINDS OF INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, AND I THINK THAT SETS A VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION.

>> OKAY, SO SEVERAL DEMOCRATIC SENATORS INCLUDING GALLEGO AND MURPHY HAVE CALLED YESTERDAY A. B. S. BRIEFING, THIS IS AN INSANE PLAN, THEY'RE PLANNING TO STEAL THEM AS WELL AS OIL AT GUNPOINT FOREVER AND USE THAT LEVERAGE TO RUN THE COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE JUST SPOKEN ABOUT THAT, OBVIOUSLY GOP SENATORS HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW AND THEY SUPPORT IT BY AND LARGE.

WHAT IS THERE TO STOP TRUMP, THOUGH ?

YOU HAVE HAD HIS DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF -- >> LET ME JUST BACK UP A LITTLE BIT HERE.

I MEAN, WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT ONLY THE BREAKING OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND INTERNATIONAL ANARCHY, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OLD-FASHIONED IMPERIALISM.

AND ALL THAT THAT IS THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD -- ENGLAND, SPAIN, PORTUGAL, WAY BACK, WHEN POWERFUL NATIONS WENT INTO POOR, UNDERDEVELOPED AREAS, AND JUST EXPLOITED THEIR RESOURCES.

THEY WERE POWERFUL, THEY WERE ABLE TO DO THAT.

AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST 100 YEARS IN AFRICA, IN LATIN AMERICA, IS AN EFFORT FOR EVIL IN THOSE COUNTRIES TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THESE ARE OUR COUNTRIES.

YOU CAN'T OVERTHROW OUR GOVERNMENTS, YOU CAN'T RUN OUR GOVERNMENTS, YOU CAN'T STEAL OUR NATURAL RESOURCES, WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR OWN FUTURE.

AND WHAT TRUMP IS SAYING, TO HELL WITH ALL OF THAT, WE HAVE THE POWER, WE ARE GOING TO DO ANYTHING WE WANT, STEAL RESOURCES FROM THE OIL COMPANIES.

NOT TO MENTION THAT ALL OVER THE WORLD, CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND THAT THE FUTURE IS NOT WITH FOSSIL FUEL AND OIL, GIVEN CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT THE MUCH LESS EXPENSIVE, SUSTAINABLE ENERGY IS LIKE SOLAR.

SO, HE IS PROPPING UP THE OIL INDUSTRY AT A TIME WHEN WE HAVE TO MOVE AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUEL.

SO, ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE, THAT IS PRETTY CRAZY.

>> I KNOW YOU HAVE TO RUN, BUT I WANT TO PLAY SOMETHING REPUBLICAN SENATOR TOM SAID WHEN HE STARTED TO THREATEN GREENLAND.

FOR EVERYBODY, INCLUDING HERE IN EUROPE, IT'S A STEP TOO FAR.

>> MR.

PRESIDENT, I AM ALSO HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT I THINK IS AMATEUR BEHAVIOR WITH RESPECT TO THE TREATMENT OF OUR NATO ALLIES.

AND IT HAS TO START WITH AN INTERVIEW THAT I SAW WITH ONE OF THE PRESIDENT'S SENIOR POLICY ADVISERS, STEPHEN MILLER, ON CNN A COUPLE OF NIGHTS AGO.

MR.

MILLER SAID THAT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT , OBVIOUSLY, GREENLAND SHOULD BE PART OF THE U. S. THAT IS ABSURD.

>> FOLKS, AMATEUR HOUR IS OVER.

YOU NOT SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THIS U. S. SENATOR OR THE CONGRESS.

YOU CAN SAY IT MAY BE THE POSITION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT GREENLAND SHOULD BE A PART OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT IS NOT A POSITION OF THIS GOVERNMENT BECAUSE WE ARE A COEQUAL BRANCH, AND IF THAT WERE TO COME TO PASS, THERE WOULD BE A VOTE ON THE FLOOR TO MAKE IT REAL.

NOT THE SURREAL SORT OF ENVIRONMENT THAT SOME DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF THINGS WAS CUTE TO SAY ON TV.

>> ARE REPUBLICANS GETTING EXERCISE BY SOME OF THIS UNILATERAL POWER -- MUSCLE FLEXING AROUND THE WORLD?

>> CHRISTIANE , I SURELY HOPE SO.

WE HAVE AN AUTHORITARIAN PRESIDENT WHO IGNORES THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, ACTS IN ILLEGAL WAYS VIRTUALLY EVERY DAY.

AND WHAT HAS DISAPPOINTED ME IS THERE ARE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE WHO KNOW BETTER.

AND IT'S LONG OVERDUE FOR THOSE GUYS TO START STANDING UP TO TRUMP AND SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU CANNOT BREAK THE LAW FOR YOUR OWN REASONS.

SO, I WOULD HOPE THAT SOME OF MY REPUBLICAN FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES WILL BEGIN TO STAND UP TO TRUMP.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT DOMESTIC POLICIES FOR A MOMENT.

THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK, ZOHRAN MAMDANI, HAS CALLED YOU HIS LONGTIME MENTOR AND YOU SWEAR HIM IN IN NEW YORK ON JANUARY.

HE SAID I WOULD NOT BE HERE WERE IT NOT FOR BERNIE SANDERS, HE GAVE ME THE LANGUAGE TO DESCRIBE MY OWN POLY -- POLITICS A DECADE AGO.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS NEW WAVE OF YOUNG AMERICAN POLITICS THAT SEEMS TO BE SHAKING UP GEN Z AND SEEMS TO BE REALLY --THEY HAVE THEIR FINGER ON THE PULSE.

>> LOOK, IN AMERICA TODAY, WE HAVE MORE INCOME AND WEALTH INEQUALITY THAN WE HAVE EVER HAD, AND WHILE THE BILLIONAIRES ARE BECOMING RICHER, 60% OF OUR PEOPLE ARE LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.

IT MAY SHOCK PEOPLE IN EUROPE, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO CANNOT AFFORD FOOD, CANNOT AFFORD HEALTHCARE, CANNOT AFFORD HOUSING COSTS.

THE HOUSING IS OFF THE CHARTS.

AND YOU HAVE HAD A DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT THAT HAS NOT PAID ATTENTION TO THE NEEDS OF THE WORKING CLASS, SO YOU HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE ZOHRAN MAMDANI WHO COMES FORWARD AND SAYS, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH THE REAL ISSUES FACING WORKING PEOPLE.

AND NOT ONLY DOES HE TALK ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES FACING THE WORKING CLASS IN NEW YORK CITY, HE DOES WHAT DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT FOLKS DON'T DO, HE ORGANIZES A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT.

SO, IT'S , TO ME, EXTRAORDINARY.

HE SAID HE HAD 90,000 VOLUNTEERS IN NEW YORK CITY ALONE KNOCKING ON DOORS.

90,000 PEOPLE , A REAL GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT.

AND I THINK YOU ARE BEGINNING TO SEE THAT COAST TO COAST, WHERE ORDINARY PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT WE CAN TAKE ON THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS.

WE NEED AN AGENDA THAT SPEAKS TO THE NEED OF THE WORKING CLASS.

THERE IS A HUMAN RIGHT.

LOWERING THE COST OF HOUSING.

IMPROVING OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM, RAISING WAGES FOR THE WORKING CLASS OF THIS COUNTRY.

SO, I THINK MAMDANI'S VICTORY WAS NOT ONLY IMPORTANT FOR NEW YORK CITY, IT REALLY IS AN INSPIRATION TO PEOPLE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND I WAS PROUD TO BE A LITTLE PART OF THAT.

>> ALL RIGHT, NOW I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO -- >> I APOLOGIZE, I'VE GOT TO RUN.

>> YOU GO DO THAT, DO THE WAR POWERS ACT, LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> OKAY, TAKE CARE, BYE-BYE.

>> OFF HE WENT, AND NOW WE KNOW WHAT THE RESULTS ARE, A SMALL BUT SIGNIFICANT BLOCK OF REPUBLICANS DID BREAK WITH THE PRESIDENT, DID VOTE WITH SANDERS AND ALL SENATE DEMOCRATS TO ALLOW A FUTURE VOTE ON THE RESOLUTION.

ON TRUTH SOCIAL, PRESIDENT TRUMP FUMED AT THE FIVE GOP SENATORS, SAYING THEY SHOULD NEVER BE ELECTED TO OFFICE AGAIN.

NOW, WITH AMERICA'S INTENTIONS IN VENEZUELA FAR FROM CLEAR, THE PEOPLE THERE ARE FACING A DEEPLY UNCERTAIN FUTURE.

ONE MAN WHO COULD PLAY A ROLE IN DETERMINING THEIR FATE WAS NICOLAS MADURO'S INTERIOR MINISTER, AND HE WAS ALSO LISTED SECOND ON THE U. S. INDICTMENT, ACCUSING MADURO OF DRUG TRAFFICKING.

PAULA NEWTON HAS MORE ON HIM.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] AMAN VENEZUELANS HAVE COME TO KNOW AND FEAR , SURROUNDED BY SECURITY FORCES, DEFIANT IN THE FACE OF U. S. ACTIONS WITH AN OMINOUS WARNING FOR THE COUNTRY, TREASON WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

REMAINED THE SECOND IN COMMAND IN VENEZUELA, AND FOR YEARS, YES CULTIVATED A MENACING IMAGE, EVEN WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.

HIS TALKSHOW STRIKING WITH THE HAMMER WAS NEVER SUBTLE.

IN THE DEVOTION IT DEMANDED TO THE REGIME.

FOR DECADES, HE HAS LED A VAST ARRAY OF INTELLIGENCE FORCES, MILITIAS, PARAMILITARY GROUPS, AND NEIGHBORHOOD ENFORCERS.

HE IS ALSO THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF SECURITY IN CHARGE OF THE NATIONAL POLICE.

ALL ORDERED MANY TIMES TO BATTLE AND INTIMIDATE THEIR OWN CITIZENS.

IN YEARS REPORTING FROM VENEZUELA, WE WITNESSED EVERYTHING FROM THE NATIONAL GUARD TAKING ON PROTESTERS TO THE SPECIAL FORCES ON LOCAL STREETS, ROOTING OUT ASSISTANCE TO AUTHORITY.

THEIR ACTIVITIES DENOUNCED BY THE U. N. , WITH CABELLO HIMSELF DICTATING MUCH OF THE ENFORCEMENT POWERS.

HE IS AN INDICTED CO-CONSPIRATOR ALONG WITH NICOLAS MADURO.

CABELLO HAS REJECTED THESE ACCUSATIONS, AND FOR NOW, HE REMAINS AT THE SIDE OF THE ACTING PRESIDENT DELCY RODRIGUEZ AS A FIERCE DEFENDER OF MADURO'S LEGACY.

AMERICAN INVESTIGATORS DESCRIBED HIM AS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL INDIVIDUALS IN VENEZUELA, BUT THE U. S. HAS NOT TURNED THE TABLES.

>> AND HE HAS JUST BEEN HIT WITH VIOLENCE THAT IS 1000 TIMES GREATER THAN ANYTHING HE CAN BRING.

SO, HE IS IN THIS REALLY --HIS HEAD IS SPINNING.

IT'S SO IRONIC BECAUSE FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS, THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TELLING US THAT [ INAUDIBLE ] WAS COMING, THAT THEY WERE SABOTAGING THE ELECTRICITY GRID AND ALL THIS.

BUT NOW THE DANGERS REALLY ARE HERE.

[ INAUDIBLE ] AND ALL THE SPRAVATO, OF THIS YEAH, COME AND GET ME KIND OF THING, THEY SEE HOW THAT WORKED OUT FOR MADURO.

>> AND SO, HOW WILL HE REACT TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S DEMANDS?

CNN HAS LEARNED THAT HE AND OTHER LEADERS HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO CUT TIES WITH U. S. ADVERSARIES LIKE IRAN, RUSSIA, CUBA, AND CHINA, AS WELL AS COOPERATE ON COUNTER NARCOTICS, AND CRUCIALLY, OVERSEE OIL SALES TO THE UNITED STATES.

CABELLO'S NEXT MOVES WILL BE CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED.

HE WAS DEPENDABLY RESTLESS AND SHREWD WITH MADURO IN POWER, EMBOLDENED BY A SECURITY APPARATUS THAT REMAINS AT HIS DISPOSAL EVEN NOW.

>> WELL, THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT REALITY CHECK.

THESE PEOPLE, WHOSE INTENTIONS ARE STILL UNCLEAR, NOW WORKING WITH THE UNITED STATES.

NOW, JUST LOOK AT THESE PICTURES.

THIS IS WINTER IN GAZA , AND AS CHILDREN ARE FREEZING IN FLOODED TENTS AND MANY ARE LUCKY EVEN TO HAVE A TENT, ISRAEL CONTINUES TO RESTRICT THEM, PLUS [ INAUDIBLE ], WHICH ARE VITAL AFTER SO MANY IN THE ENCLAVE HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES IN ISRAEL'S BOMBING CAMPAIGN.

SINCE THE CEASE-FIRE CAME INTO EFFECT IN OCTOBER, MORE THAN 300 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAEL IN GAZA ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

MEANWHILE, ISRAEL HAS REVOKED THE LICENSES OF 37 INTERNATIONAL NGOs WORKING IN GAZA, AND ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, SAYING THAT THEY FAILED TO MEET REQUIREMENTS UNDER NEW REGISTRATION RULES.

MSF IS ONE OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS, AND ITS SECRETARY-GENERAL CHRIS IS JOINING ME NOW FROM PARIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE , THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> WHAT ARE THESE NEW REGISTRATIONS, WHAT HAVE YOU FAILED TO ADHERE TO, WHAT IS GOING ON?

>> WELL, YEAH, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH IS A VERY COMPLEX FEW DAYS, AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD IS THAT OUR REGISTRATION IS NO LONGER VALID.

THE ACCUSATION AT THE CORE OF THIS SITUATION IS AROUND PROVIDING INFORMATION ABOUT OUR STAFF LISTS TO THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.

NOW, LET'S PUT THIS A LITTLE BIT IN CONTEXT.

WHAT WE HAVE THE ABSOLUTELY CATASTROPHIC HUMANITARIAN SITUATION THAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, IS A SITUATION WHEREBY THERE HAVE BEEN OVER 500 HUMANITARIAN WORKERS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED, 15 OF OUR OWN WORKERS HAVE BEEN KILLED, AND WE HAVE BEEN ASKED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT OUR STAFF TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE KILLED OUR STAFF.

SO, WE ARE IN A SITUATION OF WANTING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS INFORMATION IS GOING TO BE USED.

AT THE CORE OF THIS POINT, WE HAVE BEEN IN DISCUSSION WITH THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES FOR SEVERAL MONTHS NOW AND WE'RE STILL IN CONVERSATION WITH THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.

THE CORE OF OUR POINT HERE IS WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO THE DUTY OF CARE , TO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, THE SAFETY OF OUR STAFF AND OUR TEAMS WHO ARE EVERY DAY PROVIDING ESSENTIAL HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO THE POPULATION OF GAZA.

AND THAT IS REALLY WHAT IS AT THE CORE OF THE ISSUE HERE.

>> SO, LET ME JUST PLAY DEVILS ADVOCATE, BECAUSE YOU REMEMBER AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ACCUSED NGOs, MOST NOTABLY THE LAND, OF ACTUALLY HAVING HAMAS MEMBERS OR AFFILIATES OR SOME KIND OF HAMAS INFILTRATION OR HIRING IN THEIR RANKS.

OBVIOUSLY, THE U. N. DENIED THAT, BUT THAT HAS BEEN A THING WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

IS THAT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING TO YOU, IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK THIS IS ABOUT?

>> WELL, ACTUALLY, WHAT I THINK THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT IS ABOUT THE MANIPULATION AND INSTRUMENTALIZATION OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, AND THAT IS A FACTOR THAT WE HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT THIS WAR.

AND I THINK WHAT IT IS ESSENTIALLY, IT'S A DISTRACTION FROM THE SITUATION IN THE GAZA STRIP.

I MEAN, THERE HAS BEEN SINCE THIS WAR STARTED, OVER 70,000 PEOPLE KILLED, OVER 170,000 PEOPLE INJURED.

AS YOU WERE JUST SAYING, SINCE THE CEASE-FIRE, THE VIOLENCE CONTINUES ON A DAILY BASIS, SO I THINK IT IS ABOUT THE MANIPULATION OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

NOW, THE ACCUSATIONS ARE COMING.

I WOULD SAY AT THE MOMENT, THERE IS A PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN AGAINST HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS, AGAINST MSF, AGAINST DOZENS OF OTHER HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY UNDERMINING THE WORK THAT WE DO, AND AS A CONSEQUENCE, PUTTING OUR STAFF AND OUR ACTIVITIES IN ACUTE DANGER.

>> CHRISTOPHER LOCKYEAR, WHAT HAPPENS IF THE 37 NGOs WHO DELIVER HUMANITARIAN AID --AND IT SAYS YOU KEEP GAZA AFLOAT, BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THERE IS THERE, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE NOT THERE ?

WHO WILL DO WHAT NEEDS TO KEEP BODY AND SOUL TOGETHER?

IS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT GOING TO DO IT?

ARE THERE OTHER NGO --WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE PEOPLE OF GAZA?

>> WELL, THAT IS ESSENTIALLY OUR QUESTION, TOO.

I MEAN, LET ME PUT THAT A LITTLE BIT IN TERMS OF CONTEXT.

AS ONE OF THE DOZENS OF HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE STILL TRYING TO OPERATE IN GAZA, BECAUSE WE DO WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE EMERGENCY MEDICAL ASSISTANCE TO THE POPULATION OF GAZA, IN 2025 ALONE, MSF CARRIED OUT 800,000 OUTPATIENT CONSULTATIONS.

WE TREATED 100,000 TRAUMA CASES.

WE SUPPORTED 10,000 DELIVERIES.

AND WE PROVIDED OVER 700 MILLION METERS OF WATER.

WE SUPPORT ONE IN FIVE OF THE HOSPITAL BEDS IN GAZA, AND WE SUPPORT ONE IN THREE OF THE MOTHERS GIVING BIRTH ON A DAILY BASIS IN GAZA.

SO, THAT IS JUST ONE OF THE MANY HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE FACING THIS AWFUL SITUATION AT THE MOMENT.

WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IN THE GAZA STRIP IS AN INCREASE OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, NOT A DECREASE OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

AND THAT HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IS A FUNDAMENTAL OBLIGATION UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

IT IS NOT OPTIONAL, IT IS NOT TO BE CAVEAT IT OR CONDITIONAL.

THE PEOPLE OF THE GAZA STRIP NEED A FLOOD, A MASSIVE INCREASE OF HUMANITARIAN EXISTENCE, EVEN DESPITE THE 90 DAYS OF CEASE-FIRE THAT WE HAVE SEEN RECENTLY.

>> NOW, YOU GAVE US SOME NUMBERS, VERY IMPORTANT NUMBERS OF YOUR WORK.

WE HAVE THESE STATS AND I WANT TO PUT THEM UP AND READ THEM.

SO, MSF PROVIDES FUNDING AND INTERNATIONAL STAFF FOR SIX HOSPITALS, RUNS TWO FIELD HOSPITALS, AND EIGHT PRIMARY HEALTHCARE CENTERS, CLINICS, AND MEDICAL POINTS.

RUNS TWO OF GAZA'S FIVE STABILIZATION CENTERS, HELPING CHILDREN WITH SEVERE MALNUTRITION, AND TREATS 100,000 TRAUMA CASES, PERFORMS SURGERIES ON 10,000 PATIENTS, HANDLES A THIRD OF GAZA'S BIRTH, AND MORE THAN 1200 LOCAL STAFF , MOSTLY MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS.

NOW, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT, AND OF COURSE, THERE ARE 37 GROUPS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAYS YOU ALL REPRESENT ONLY A SMALL SLICE OF A DELIVERY AND THAT GAZA CAN MANAGE WITHOUT THEM.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> I FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT POINT.

PARTICULARLY IF WE LOOK AT THE SITUATION AT THE MOMENT.

AS WE HAVE GONE INTO THE WINTER SEASON, WE ARE SEEING AN INCREASE IN DIARRHEAL DISEASES, WE ARE SEEING AN INCREASE IN RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS, INFECTIONS IN GENERAL.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE 1.

3 MILLION PEOPLE IN NEED OF EMERGENCY SHELTER THAT IS NOT GETTING THROUGH.

NOW, THERE SHOULD BE MORE.

WE COULD DO MORE.

THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE COULD DO MORE IF WE ARE ALLOWED TO DO THAT IN AN UNRESTRICTED WAY, WHICH ALLOWS NOT JUST THE SUPPLIES TO COME IN, BUT OUR STAFF TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE AND FLEXIBLE AND PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHERE IT IS NEEDED ON A DAILY BASIS, SO THERE IS NEED FOR MORE, ABSOLUTELY.

WE CAN PROVIDE THAT AS A HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY IN GENERAL, WE CAN PROVIDE THAT MORE, AID, IF THE RESTRICTIONS ARE LIFTED AND WE CAN HAVE A PREDICTABLE, SOLID, SAFE PRESENCE IN THE GAZA STRIP.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER REQUIREMENTS THAT ISRAEL IS MAKING OF YOU ALL, BUT I JUST WANT TO KNOW RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WE SEE PICTURES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WE ARE STILL OBVIOUSLY NOT ABLE TO GET IN, WHICH IS AN UNACCEPTABLE SITUATION WHICH WE CONTINUE TO PROTEST.

BUT THERE ARE PICTURES COMING OUT, AND WE ARE JUST SORT OF STRUCK BY HOW SO MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN, ARE LEFT SLOSHING AROUND IN FREEZING WATER, FREEZING, DIRTY WATER.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE HOSPITAL IS HAVING A HUGELY DIFFICULT TIME WITH KIDNEY TRANSPLANTS , AND MANY PEOPLE, THEY SAY, ARE DYING DUE TO THE LACK OF PROPER TREATMENT.

JUST GIVE ME A SENSE OF FOOD, MEDICINE, CLEAN WATER, THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SPECIALIZED TREATMENT LIKE KIDNEY DIALYSIS.

IS THAT BEING PROVIDED?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO REALIZE IS THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE OF EVERYTHING.

SO, THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE OF THE COMPLEX MEDICAL SERVICES, KIDNEY DIALYSIS, IT CAN BE COMPLICATED, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING IN BASIC SUPPORT EQUIPMENT INTO THE GAZA STRIP, BECAUSE THEY ARE SEEN AS SOME OF THESE JEWEL ITEMS WHICH ARE VERY COMPLEX AND DIFFICULT TO BE ABLE TO BRING IN.

THEY ARE OFTEN REFUSED, OFTEN RANDOMLY, TO BE ABLE TO BRING THOSE IN.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU MENTIONED THE FOOD CRISIS THERE.

THERE IS STILL 76% OF THE POPULATION WHO ARE IN FOOD CRISIS IN GAZA, SO IT IS THE WHOLE BREADTH OF MEDICAL SERVICES AND HUMANITARIAN SERVICES IN GENERAL, WHICH ARE NEEDED AND NEEDED NOW.

IT'S REALLY QUITE HARD TO BE ABLE TO ARTICULATE THE LEVEL OF CATASTROPHE THAT IS STILL PRESENT IN GAZA, AND AS I WAS SAYING ORIGINALLY, I THINK A LOT OF THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT REGISTRATION IS REALLY DISTRACTING FROM WHAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE AT THE MOMENT, WHICH IS THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA IS NOTHING SHORT OF CATASTROPHIC.

THE HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS ARE PROVIDING A CRITICAL LIFELINE INTO THE GAZA STRIP.

IT IS NOT ENOUGH.

WE CAN DO MORE, BUT AT THE MOMENT, IT IS BEING RESTRICTED FURTHER SINCE JANUARY 1st, WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BRING IN ANY SUPPLIES AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BRING IN ANY INTERNATIONAL WORKERS INTO THE GAZA STRIP, SO IT IS GETTING HARDER, NOT EASIER.

BUT WE NEED TO BE PROVIDING MORE AND NOT LESS HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

THAT'S OKAY, SO I JUST NEED TO ASK YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT YOU SAID YOU BELIEVE HUMANITARIAN AID AND NGOs ARE BEING WEAPONIZE, THAT IS THE WORD YOU USED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE INTERVIEW.

AND I KNOW YOU KNOW ISRAEL CAN ALSO REFUSE REGISTRY TO ORGANIZATIONS OR REVOKE THEIR APPROVAL TO WORK IN ISRAEL IF THEY OR THEIR STAFF MEMBERS PUBLISH CALLS TO BOYCOTT ISRAEL IN THE PAST SEVEN YEARS.

IF THERE IS A REASONABLE BASIS TO ASSUME THAT THEY OPPOSE ISRAEL'S EXISTENCE AS A JEWISH DEMOCRATIC STATE.

IF THEY INCITE RACISM OR SUPPORT ARM STRUGGLE AGAINST THE STATE OF ISRAEL OR ACTIVELY ADVANCED DELEGITIMIZATION ACTIVITIES AGAINST THE STATE OF ISRAEL, DENYING THE HOLOCAUST AND THE ATROCITIES OF HAMAS' ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th ARE ALSO GROUNDS TO HOLD APPROVAL.

SO, HAVE YOU EVER HAD THAT KIND OF STANDARD PUT BEFORE YOU EITHER IN ISRAEL OR BY OTHER , YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENTS WILL HAVE THEIR OWN POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL , YOU KNOW, MISSIONS?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

I MEAN, WHAT WE ARE IS A HUMANITARIAN MEDICAL ORGANIZATION.

OUR OBJECTIVE OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS NOW IS TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO PATIENTS WHO NEED IT THE MOST.

BASICALLY, THAT IS IT.

THAT IS OUR OBJECTIVE.

WE DO ALSO BEAR WITNESS TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN FRONT OF US, AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN FRONT OF US IN THE GAZA STRIP HAS BEEN A CATASTROPHIC SITUATION.

WE HAVE SEEN OVER 70,000 PEOPLE KILLED.

THERE ARE NOT INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS ALLOWED TO COME INTO THE GAZA STRIP WHO WOULD HIGHLY ADVOCATE FOR THAT TO BE ALLOWED, TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

BUT THOSE ARE OUR OBJECTIVES.

TO PROVIDE MEDICAL ASSISTANCE TO THE PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP AND ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.

IN SUDAN, IN YEMEN, AND DLC, AND WHEN NECESSARY, TO TALK ABOUT THE HORRORS THAT WE ARE SEEING, AND WE HAVE BEEN SEEING HORRORS IN THE GAZA STRIP AND WE CONTINUE TO SEE PEOPLE BEING KILLED, AND THE MEDICAL IMPLICATIONS OF THAT ON A DAILY BASIS.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU ABOUT THE WEST BANK WHERE YOU ALSO HAVE, YOU KNOW, HUMANITARIAN STAFF THERE.

THERE IS JUST A DAY AFTER DAY REPORTS OF KILLINGS AND INJURIES, OF BURNING DOWN AND, YOU KNOW, DESTROYING PALESTINIAN FARMLAND, OLIVE TREES, GRAZING CATTLE, THE REST OF IT , SHEEP, AND GRABBING LAND.

WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM YOUR PEOPLE THAT IS HAPPENING ON OCCUPIED WEST BANK?

>> WELL, AS YOU DESCRIBED, IT IS REALLY A VERY HORRIBLE SITUATION FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK, AND THAT IS ALSO BECOMING MORE COMPLICATED OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS AS WELL, SINCE THIS REGISTRATION ISSUE HAS REALLY COME TO THE SURFACE.

IT IS BECOMING EVEN HARDER FOR US TO OPERATE IN THE WEST BANK AS WELL, SO AT THE SAME TIME AS THE REALLY CATASTROPHIC HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN THE GAZA STRIP, WE ARE SEEING IT BECOMING HARDER AND HARDER TO BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN OUR ACTIVITIES AND OUR PRESENCE IN THE WEST BANK AS WELL.

>> I JUST HAVE A LAST ONE TO ASK YOU ABOUT UKRAINE, BECAUSE I THINK YOU JUST RETURNED FROM UKRAINE, CLOSE TO THE EASTERN FRONT, WHERE THE SITUATION IS ALSO CATASTROPHIC.

IT IS FREEZING COLD, THE RUSSIANS ARE CONTINUING TO TRY, AND THEY ARE PUMMELING THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IN THE WINTER IS EVEN WORSE THAN IT WOULD BE IN ANY OTHER TIME.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING OVER THERE AND WHAT KIND OF AID IS REACHING PEOPLE?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE KEY DYNAMICS OF THE MOMENT THAT WE ARE SEEING IS AS YOU WERE DESCRIBING, THE ATTACKS ON ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, THE ELECTRICAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN PARTICULAR.

I MEAN, THERE WAS ONE DAY WHERE I VISITED TWO MEDICAL FACILITIES , TWO HOSPITALS, AND AN AMBULANCE DISPATCH SITE, AND ALL OF THEM WERE UNDER THE TERROR OF NOT KNOWING WHEN THE ELECTRICITY WOULD BE --THE ELECTRICITY SUPPLY WOULD BE CUT OFF.

THE AMBULANCE SITE WAS OPERATING IN THE DARK.

SO, THERE IS THIS REALLY COMPLICATED SITUATION WHERE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS ARE BEING INCREASED BY THE ATTACKS ON THE ENERGY AND INFRASTRUCTURE, AND AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE BEING COMPLICATED BY THE ATTACKS ON THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE AS WELL.

THERE WERE ALSO QUESTIONS IN TERMS OF THE -- LET'S WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, I'M REALLY SORRY, I JUST WANTED TO GET A LAST WORD ON THE UKRAINE SITUATION, WE WILL KEEP FOLLOWING UP, BUT ESPECIALLY ON YOUR SITUATION WITH BEING DEREGISTERED FOR GAZA.

LET'S HOPE SOME HUMANITARIAN AID DOES ACTUALLY GET THROUGH, BECAUSE THEY NEED IT.

CHRISTOPHER LOCKYEAR, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

> >> PRESIDENT TRUMP STAYING AND RUNNING PENICILLIN FOR MANY YEARS, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS HIS CRITICS ARE FALLING INTO AN OBVIOUS TRAP WITH THEIR RESPONSE TO MADURO'S CAPTURE AND THE SUBSEQUENT FALLOUT.

IN A NEW ESSAY, THE ATLANTIC'S DAVID WARNS THAT OPPONENTS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE GETTING BOGGED DOWN IN THE LEGALITIES OF THE MILITARY OPERATION, AND HE IS JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY TRANS-CRITICS ARE GETTING IT ALL WRONG AND WHY THEIR MESSAGE KEEPS FAILING TO BREAK THROUGH.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE , DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE U. S. INCURSION STRIKE INTO VENEZUELA, SEE THE THING MADURO AND HIS WIFE, BRINGING HIM BACK TO THE U. S. FOR INVOLVEMENT IN DRUG TRAFFICKING.

BEFORE WE GET TO A SPECIFIC PIECE I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU OVERALL, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THAT MISSION, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> PEOPLE USE THE PHRASE REGIME CHANGE, BUT WHAT WE ACTUALLY SEE HERE IS DICTATOR CHANGE.

THE REGIME REMAINS INTACT.

NICOLAS MADURO IS NOT A CHARISMATIC DICTATOR OF THE FIDEL CASTRO TYPE, HE IS AN INHERITOR OF THE REPRESSIVE MILITARY AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEM THAT WAS BUILT BY HIS PREDECESSOR, HUGO CHAVEZ, WHO TOOK POWER IN THE 1990s.

SO, THIS REGIME HAS BEEN THERE FOR 30 YEARS.

MADURO WAS THE SECOND IN LINE, HE INHERITED AFTER CHAVEZ DIED OF CANCER, AN ASSISTANT PRECEDED HIM AND CAN OUTLAST HIM.

SO, BY REMOVING HIM FROM THE SYSTEM, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY CHANGE VERY MUCH, UNLESS YOU CHANGE OTHER THINGS ABOUT THE SYSTEM, TOO.

TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEEMS QUITE DETERMINED TO LEAVE THE LESS --REST OF THAT SYSTEM INTACT, BECAUSE I THINK THEY BELIEVE --IT SEEMS TO ME THE THREAT OF RATIONALITY IS THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SYSTEM ARE MORE AMENABLE TO PRESSURE AND MAYBE EVEN MORE CORRUPT THAN NICOLAS MADURO AS THEY CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.

WHILE REFUSING TO DO ANYTHING TO BRING THE LEGITIMATE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF VENEZUELA BACK TO POWER.

VENEZUELA HAD AN ELECTION YEAR AGO, IT WAS INTENDED TO BE A FAKE, BUT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE WAS SO STRONG THAT IT OVERWHELMS THE FAKE, AND WE NOW HAVE A LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES.

>> SO, DUE BY THE ADMINISTRATION'S RATIONALE FOR THIS.

THEY ARE SAYING IT ISN'T A WAR, SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO NOTIFY CONGRESS OR SEEK CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, THEY'RE SAYING IT IS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION TO INTERRUPT A DRUG TRAFFICKING OPERATION.

DO YOU BUY IT?

X WELL, WHICH ONE DO I BUY?

I THINK THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE EXPLANATIONS OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND THEY CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER, SO I CAN'T LEAVE THEM ALL.

AND WHEN THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT ONES, I AM PROBABLY INCLINED TO BELIEVE NONE OF THEM.

ONE RATIONALE IS YES, THIS IS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION TO SEE IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN INDICTED BY THE UNITED STATES WAR.

ANOTHER IS NO, NO, NO, THIS IS AN ANTIDRUG OPERATION INTENDED TO STOP THE FLOW OF DRUGS FROM VENEZUELA TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

ANOTHER IS THIS IS INTENDED TO SEE IS VENEZUELA'S OIL RESOURCES AND ANNEX THEM TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> OR TO RECOVER OIL RESOURCES THAT WERE IMPROPERLY TAKEN 20 YEARS AGO.

>> OR THAT, THAT IS ANOTHER, MAYBE THAT IS NOW FOUR.

SO, DIFFERENT PEOPLE -- THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORTH AN EXPEDITION, THE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORTH AN EXPLANATION, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE OR SECRETARY OF WAR AS HE LIKES TO STYLE HIMSELF, HAS PUT FORWARD AN EXPLANATION, BUT THEY'RE ALL CONTRADICTORY, TO WHICH ONE SHOULD I BELIEVE?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS WHY PEOPLE OBJECT --PEOPLE ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ARE OBJECTING TO WHAT JUST OCCURRED HERE.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE SAYING IN YOUR PIECE, WHICH CAUGHT MY ATTENTION, YOU'RE SAYING THAT TRUMP'S CRITICS ARE FALLING INTO AN OBVIOUS TRAP, WHAT IS THE TRAP ?

>> WHAT TRUMP WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE IS THIS IS A PATRIOTIC OPERATION DONE BY THE SKILLED ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES IN AMERICAN NATIONAL INTEREST, AND WAS AEROBICALLY AND THOUGHTFULLY EXECUTED.

AND IT'S JUST A LOT OF LEGALISTIC GIBBERISH THAT IS STANDING IN THE WAY OF APPRECIATING THE GREAT PATRIOTIC ACHIEVEMENT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'M TRYING TO SAY IS WHATEVER THIS WAS, THIS WAS NOT DONE FOR THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

I GUESS, AND THIS IS ONLY A GUESS, IS THIS OIL TALK REVEALS SOMETHING REAL.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, SEIZING VENEZUELA'S OIL MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> WELL, STOP THERE FOR A SECOND, WHY NOT?

>> SO, $58 A BARREL.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS THE LARGEST PRODUCER OF OIL IN THE WORLD.

AT $58 A BARREL, AMERICAN PRODUCERS, MANY OF THEM HAVE TROUBLE BREAKING EVEN.

ADD CANADA, WHICH USED TO BE A FRIEND OF THE UNITED STATES, AND NORTH AMERICA PRODUCES 28% OF ALL THE OIL PRODUCED IN THE WORLD.

THE IDEA THAT YOU NEED ANOTHER MILLION BARRELS A DAY IS CRAZY, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING, HOW MUCH WILL IT COST TO BRING VENEZUELA'S OIL TO MARKET ?

THE VENEZUELA OIL RESERVES ARE LOCATED IN JUNGLE TERRAIN IN THE FAR EAST OF THE COUNTRY.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH ROADS.

IT IS HEAVY OIL, WHICH HAS TO BE BROUGHT --IT DOESN'T BUBBLE SPONTANEOUSLY TO THE SERVICE, YOU HAVE TO INJECT STEAM INTO THE GROUND TO BRING THE OIL TO THE TOP.

STEAM TAKES ELECTRICITY.

GUESS WHAT THERE AREN'T A LOT OF IN THE JUNGLES OF VENEZUELA, HYDROELECTRIC WATER PLANTS OR GRADES OR PUMPING STATIONS.

THERE AREN'T ADEQUATE SECURITY, SO IF THERE ARE INSURGENCIES, THERE ARE GORILLAS THERE, AND THE WHOLE THING IS JUST BONKERS.

FOR THE TINY FRACTION OF THE COST IT WOULD TAKE TO BRING ANY VENEZUELAN OIL TO MARKET, YOU CAN BRING A LOT MORE U. S. OR CANADIAN OIL TO MARKET.

AND THE PROBLEM IS ACTUALLY, WE'VE GOT ENOUGH, WE DON'T NEED MORE.

>> YOU'VE MANAGED TO ARTICULATE THIS IN A VERY FEW MINUTES.

YOU SAY THAT CRITICS ARE GETTING IT WRONG, WHERE ARE THEY GETTING IT WRONG?

>> THEY ARE GETTING BOGGED DOWN IN LEGALISMS.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY THIS IS ABOUT HOW MADURO WAS ARRESTED OR ANYTHING IN DEFENSE OF THIS TERRIBLE DICTATOR, YOU ARE ALLOWING TRUMP TO STAGE A FALSE ARGUMENT AS IF IT WERE THE TRUE ONE.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE IS NOT SOMETHING DONE FOR THAT NATIONAL INTEREST.

I WILL LEARN MORE ABOUT IT, THERE IS SOME SHADY ELEMENT TO ALL OF THIS, AND THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU NEED TO FOCUS.

THE PROBLEM IS WE ARE ALL KIND OF CONSERVATIVE IN A SMALL SENSE.

WE ALL WANT TO REMEMBER ARGUMENTS WE USED TO HAVE AND TO THINK ABOUT A NORMAL AMERICAN PRESIDENCY WHO DOES THINGS A NORMAL, AMERICAN WAY.

IT IS JUST HARD FOR PEOPLE IN CONGRESS IN BIG INSTITUTIONS, HARD FOR PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE IS PROBABLY A CORRUPT MOTIVE HERE.

AND EVEN IF IT IS NOT IMMEDIATELY OBVIOUS WHAT THAT CORRUPT MOTIVE IS, JUST WAIT 72 HOURS AND IT WILL BECOME OBVIOUS.

BUT DON'T START WITH THE PREMISE THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HERE IS A ROCK OR PANAMA REPLAYED.

THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT, THIS IS ABOUT SOMEBODY HAVING A GET RICH QUICK SCHEME AND WE JUST NEED TO TAKE A LITTLE WHILE TO DISCOVER WHO THAT SOMEBODY IS SPREAD >> IT'S INTERESTING, WHO DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE ARTICULATING THAT ARGUMENT?

SHOULD THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, SHOULD IT BE PUBLIC INTELLECTUALS LIKE YOURSELF?

WHO SHOULD BE SAYING THAT?

>> I THINK THERE ARE THINGS MEMBERS OF CONGRESS CAN THINK WITHOUT HAVING TO SAY.

OBVIOUSLY, A MEMBER OF CONGRESS NEEDS TO WAIT --IF THERE IS A CORRUPT SCHEME HERE, YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT UNTIL YOU HAVE MORE PROOF OF EXACTLY WHAT THE CORRUPT SCHEME IS, BUT THEY NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

AND NOT TO ALLOW OLD HABITS TO DRIVE THEM INTO THE INSTINCTIVE RESPONSE TO --WHATEVER INTERNATIONAL LAW MEANS, THAT'S WHAT WAS VIOLATED HERE, BECAUSE THAT WILL SOUND TO A LOT OF AMERICANS LIKE DENIGRATING A GREAT AMERICAN MILITARY VICTORY, WHEN THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

WE HAVEN'T HAD A GREAT AMERICAN MILITARY VICTORY, WE HAVE HAD A RAID THAT HAS APPREHENDED A GENUINE WRONGDOER, BUT PROBABLY FOR REASONS THAT WON'T BEAR A LOT OF PUBLIC SCRUTINY WHEN THEY ARE REVEALED.

>> AND THERE ARE SORT OF STATEMENTS INITIALLY --MOST REPUBLICANS WERE ON BOARD.

MOST REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED IT, AND DEMOCRATS ARE SKEPTICAL.

BUT THERE ARE SOME REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED THE SAME DOUBTS THAT YOU HAVE, WHO HAD SAID THAT THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO THE MARKET.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO PAST PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR.

I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT JUST PARDONED THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS, WHO WAS CONVICTED OF TRAFFICKING IN ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF DRUGS INTO THE UNITED STATES, CONVICTED IN AN AMERICAN COURT, AND SO, THEY POINTED OUT THE INCONSISTENCIES THAT YOU HAVE POINTED OUT, THEY POINTED OUT THAT MAKES NO SENSE FROM A MARKET PERSPECTIVE.

DO YOU THINK ANY OF THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE PENETRATING?

>> I THINK THERE IS A HABIT HERE.

SO, THERE IS A LONG TRADITION GOING BACK TO GEORGE WASHINGTON'S TIME, ARGUMENTS OF [ INAUDIBLE ].

THEY ARE VERY FAMILIAR ARGUMENTS, LOCATED ARGUMENTS, A LOT OF GOOD FAITH ON BOTH SIDES.

AND I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT --WHO WOULD LIKE TO SUPPORT TRUMP, WHO WANT TO SEE US REVERT TO THE INTERVENTIONIST VERSUS ISOLATIONIST ARGUMENT, AND SAY PRESIDENT TRUMP PRETENDED TO BE AN ISOLATIONIST, NOW HE IS ACTING AS AN INTERVENTIONIST, HE IS CONTRADICTING HIMSELF, BUT AT LEAST WE ARE BACK IN OUR FAMILIAR LANDSCAPE.

AND WE DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST TO THE STRANGE NEW WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE, IN WHICH THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE NOT RELEVANT TO WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

TRUMP IS PLANNING, APPARENTLY, OR ITS RUMORED OR REPORTED OR CLAIMED BY MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO FOLLOW UP WHAT HE DID IN VENEZUELA BY DOING A PEARL HARBOR ON DENMARK.

NOW, WHATEVER THAT IS, IT'S NOT A PART OF OUR OLD ISOLATIONIST VERSUS INTERVENTIONIST ARGUMENTS ANYMORE, BECAUSE THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN INTERVENTIONIST IN AMERICAN HISTORY OF DOING A PEARL HARBOR ON A NATO ALLY.

SO, THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES, IF THE ARGUMENTS ARE AS CLEAR AS YOU HAVE ARTICULATE, WHY AREN'T MORE PEOPLE MAKING THEM?

>> BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME REALLY UPSETTING THINGS THAT WE DON'T LIKE TO THINK ABOUT.

IT IS CORRUPT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS GOING ON.

IT IS VERY UPSETTING, WE DON'T HAVE A PRESIDENCY THAT HAS SCANDALS, WE HAVE A SCANDAL THAT IS RUNNING A PRESIDENCY.

THAT THE SCANDAL IS THE STORY.

AND THERE ARE MANY SCANDALS, THERE IS ONE BIG SCANDAL, WHICH IS A PRESIDENT AND HIS FAMILY USING THE OFFICE FOR SELF- ENRICHMENT ON A SCALE NOT ONLY EVER SEEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BUT IN ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AT ALL.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK TO POST-SOVIET UNION TO SEE COMPARABLE BILLION- DOLLAR SCALES OF SELF- ENRICHMENT.

AND WE WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE COUNTRY WE GREW UP IN, THAT WE LOVED INSTITUTIONS WE REVERE ARE THERE.

AND IT'S JUST HARD, IT'S JUST HARD TO TAKE ON THE SCALE OF WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS, ESPECIALLY IN THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND SINCE JANUARY 2016.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES OF AMERICA'S CULTURE RIGHT NOW IS JUST A CYNICISM ABOUT EVERYTHING.

I MEAN, THERE IS ONE SORT OF THEORY ABOUT THE LOSS OF CONFIDENCE IN THE LEGACY MEDIA, FOR EXAMPLE.

IS THIS TOO NEGATIVE, TOO CYNICAL?

YOU'RE SAYING IT'S THE OPPOSITE.

THERE IS A SORT OF WILLINGNESS --AN UNWILLINGNESS TO REALLY SEE SOMETHING AS CLEARLY AS IT NEEDS TO BE SEEN, TO BE AS NEGATIVE AS THE MOMENT CALLS FOR.

>> AND PRO-INSTITUTIONAL AMERICA, ESPECIALLY --I MEAN, PEOPLE WHO WATCH A PROGRAM LIKE THIS, WE ARE OLDER.

REMEMBER MANY PRESIDENTS.

WE REMEMBER AN AMERICA THAT FOR MOST OF US, IT HAS BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR US.

WE REMEMBER THAT AMERICA HAS BEEN A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD.

WE REMEMBER COMING DOWN TO THE BERLIN WALL.

WE REMEMBER DEMOCRACY IN THE 1990s, WE REMEMBER THE END OF APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA AND TAIWAN AND SOUTH KOREA BECOMING DEMOCRACIES, MEXICO TURNING INTO A MULTIPARTY DEMOCRACY.

FOR ME, THAT IS YESTERDAY.

AND WE REMEMBER A UNITED STATES IN WHICH THERE IS DIGNITY.

AND HOWEVER FOULMOUTHED POLITICIANS ARE IN PRIVATE, WHEN THEY APPEAR IN PUBLIC, THEIR DIGNIFIED.

IF SOMEONE DIES, THEY DON'T MOCK THE DEAD.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WHEN SOMEONE DIES AND THE MOST TRAGIC, HORRIFIC WAY, HIS INSTINCT IS LET ME GO MOCK THAT PERSON.

THE FAMILY IS NOT MISERABLE ENOUGH, LET ME SEE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN ADD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THE FAMILY'S MISERY.

IT IS HARD TO ADJUST TO THAT WORLD, WE DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

SO, IT IS EASY FOR US IN PRO- INSTITUTIONAL AMERICA TO SAY THE REAL STORY IS WHAT MARCO RUBIO IS SAYING TO THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR, BECAUSE THAT FEELS LIKE AMERICA AS WE KNEW IT.

>> WHAT SHOULD MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BE DOING RIGHT NOW?

>> IF I HAD ONE WISH, I WOULD HAVE A JOINT HOUSE AND SENATE RESOLUTION SAYING ANY PRESIDENTIAL ORDER TO ATTACK THE NATO ORDER IS AN ILLEGAL ORDER AND IS AN ACT OF OBEYING AN ILLEGAL ORDER.

TREATIES OF THE UNITED STATES ARE THE LAW OF THE LAND, ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION, A TREATY IS EVERY BIT AS MUCH A LAW AS A STATUTE.

AND IF HE ORDERS TO ATTACK A NATO ALLY WITH FIRST --THAT IS A NATO ORDER, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CONNOR'S PAST THAT POINT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CONGRESS PASS A RESOLUTION RECOGNIZING THE WINNER, GONZALEZ, THE WINNER OF THE 2024 ELECTION, THE PERSON RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ALMOST ALL OF AMERICA'S ALLIES AND COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA AS THE RIGHTFUL PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA.

LIKE TO SEE THEM PUT SOME MUSCLE BEHIND THAT.

YOU DON'T WANT TO SEND TROOPS TO VENEZUELA, BUT THE GOAL SHOULD BE TO BRING GONZALEZ TO LAWFUL POWER.

AND IN A NEGOTIATED WAY.

SO, THAT WOULD BE THE BEST OUTCOME, BUT YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING, AND BRINGING THE PROPER LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA TO POWER, THAT SHOULD BE THE AMERICAN GOAL, NOT EMPOWERING THE NEXT DICTATOR IN LINE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SO RELUCTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS ELECTION, WHICH AS YOU POINTED OUT, MOST GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE DONE ?

>> WELL, THERE MAY BE A LOT OF PETTY REASONS, BUT I THINK THERE IS ONE BIG ONE.

IF YOU TOOK THIS IDEA SERIOUSLY, HE WOULD BE SIGNING UP FOR A BIG CHALLENGE.

VENEZUELA WAS A VERY SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY FROM THE 1950s TO 1990s.

IT FELL UNDER DISREPAIR UNDER CHAVEZ AND UNDER CHAOS .

THAT IS A BIG PROJECT.

IT ALSO MEANS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO STOP AND SEE THE QUARTER OF THE COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN DRIVEN INTO EXILE.

8 MILLION PEOPLE.

BY THE WAY, THE LARGEST GROUP OF THEM IN COLUMBIA, BUT MANY OF THEM IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU HAVE TO STOP SEEING THEM AS INVADERS AND THREATS OF CRIMINALS WHO SHOULD BE SENT TO TORTURE PRISONS.

[ INAUDIBLE ] BUT IT INVOLVES SOME WAY TO SAY, HOW DO WE TAKE ALL THE CAPITAL AND THE KNOW- HOW THAT HAS LEFT VENEZUELA AND ENCOURAGE IT TO REPATRIATE, AT LEAST IN PART, AND TO RECONSTRUCT THE COUNTRY?

THIS WOULD BE A BIG PROJECT.

AND ONE MORE THING, ONE OF THE REASONS THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO DO IT IS BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO DO THE PROJECT A REASONABLE COST TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THEN YOU NEED PARTNERS.

WE ARE GOING TO WORK WITH MEXICO AND COLOMBIA AND BRAZIL.

AND -- WHAT I THINK ABOUT HOW THIS MILITARY INTERVENTION WENT, HOW DIFFERENTLY IT WOULDN'T HAVE GONE IF THE PRESIDENT HAD DELIVERED HIS MESSAGE NOT FLANKED BY HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION, BUT FLANKED BY OTHER PRESIDENTS FROM LATIN AMERICA?

BACKED BY A RESOLUTION OF CONGRESS?

THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN FROM THIS PRESIDENT, BUT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK, YEAH, ENDING A DICTATORSHIP IN VENEZUELA, THAT IS REJECTED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE AND THE DEMOCRATIC VOTE, BUT IT'S A BIG RECONSTRUCTION PROJECT, WE NEED PARTNERS, WE NEED FRIENDS, AND WE NEED PERMISSION FROM CONGRESS.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, I WANT TO LOOP BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED OUR CONVERSATION.

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY THIS HAPPENED?

AS YOU POINTED OUT, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS GIVEN MULTIPLE REASONS, SOME OF WHICH ARE CONTRADICTORY.

>> I HAVE A GUESS, IT'S NOT REALLY A THEORY.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES HAS SUFFERED THIS TERRIBLE FLOW OF DRUG DEBTS FROM OPIOIDS, NOT FROM THE DRUGS THAT COME FROM VENEZUELA, WHICH ARE MOSTLY COCAINE.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION -- MANY OF THE PEOPLE THERE FEEL THE STEPS VERY INTENSELY, AS THEY SHOULD, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

BUT THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT BLAMES FOREIGNERS.

THAT'S IS THE REASON AMERICANS ARE DYING IS NOT BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT ARE WRONG IN AMERICAN LIFE, IT IS NOT THAT WE NEED SOMETHING TO CHANGE IN THE WAY WE DO THINGS HERE, SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING THIS TO US, THE URGE TO BLAME OTHERS.

THEIR FIRST INTENTION WAS TO MEXICO, WHICH IS ACTUALLY WHERE MOST OF THE FENTANYL FLOWS FROM.

AND BEFORE THE YEAR FOR 23 '24, THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD BECOME IMPORTANT IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO ACTUALLY USE MILITARY INSIDE MEXICO.

ONCE IN POWER, IT BECAME CLEAR THIS MEXICO FOR WAS NOT VERY FEASIBLE, AND ANYWAY, THE MEXICANS WENT VERY FAR TO COOPERATE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT THAT URGE TO DO SOMETHING VIOLENT, TO STOP DRUGS THAT ARE BLAMED ON OTHERS, NOT TO LOOK INWARD, TO LOOK OUTWARD FOR A VILLAIN, I THINK THAT IMPULSE SHIFTED FROM MEXICO TO ATTACH ITSELF TO VENEZUELA.

AND THE IRONY, OF COURSE, IS THAT THERE GENERALLY IS A BIG DRUG PROBLEM VIA MEXICO, THERE ISN'T SUCH A BIG DROP FROM VENEZUELA, BUT IT WAS A PLACE WHERE THOSE FEELINGS COULD GO.

AND INSTEAD OF LOOKING INWARD AND SAYING WHY IS IT THAT SO MANY AMERICANS ARE HARMING THEMSELVES IN THIS WAY, AND SO MANY MORE THAT WERE HARMING THEMSELVES JUST 50 YEARS AGO, WHY?

WHAT CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE HERE, SO THAT AMERICANS ARE LESS INCLINED TO TAKE DRUGS, THEY ARE MET WITH BETTER CARE WHEN THEY GET IT?

ANTI-OVERDOSE REMEDIES ARE MORE EASILY AND FREELY AVAILABLE.

ALL OF THAT REQUIRES THINKING AND PLANNING AND NOT JUST ANGER AND VIOLENCE.

>> DAVID FRUM, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, BYE-BYE.

>> A REALLY GREAT AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION THERE.

> >> AND FINALLY, WHILE AGREEMENTS FUTURE DOES REMAIN UNCERTAIN, AT LEAST WE KNOW THE NORTHERN LIGHTS WILL NEVER BE SEIZED OR SOLD.

A SMALL CAMERA OVER AN AIRPORT IN WESTERN GREENLAND CAPTURED THE EARLY MORNING SKY LIT UP BY THESE EXTRAORDINARY GREEN LIGHTS.

THE NATURAL PHENOMENON OCCURS WHEN THE EARTH'S MAGNETOSPHERE IS DISTURBED, AND TRUTH BE TOLD, THERE IS A LOT DISTURBING GREEN LANDERS RIGHT NOW, AND THESE MOMENTS OF LIGHT ARE PRICELESS.

> >> COMING UP ON TOMORROW'S SHOW, TWO SETS OF CELEBRATED COLLABORATORS WHOSE RELATIONSHIPS COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT.

I SAT DOWN WITH THE ACCLAIMED ACTOR EVEN TO DISCUSS A BLUE MOON, HIS LATEST PROJECT WITH LONGTIME DIRECTOR AND CREATIVE PARTNER RICHARD.

THE FILM FOLLOWS THE BREAKDOWN OF A 25 YEAR BROADWAY PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN LYRICIST LORENZO AND COMPOSER RICHARD ROGERS.

HERE IS WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT HOW HE SUSTAINS A MUCH HEALTHIER DYNAMIC AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

>> A 25 YEAR COLLABORATION, AND SO DO WE.

AND WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES ARTISTIC INTIMACY?

I MEAN, IT'S A VERY CLOSE -- WHEN YOU CREATE TOGETHER, WHEN YOUR NAMES ARE ASSOCIATED WITH EACH OTHER, WHEN YOU ARE POURING PIECES OF YOURSELF INTO YOUR ART, MIXING THEM WITH THE OTHER PERSON, UM, IT'S A POWERFUL CONNECTION, AND I THINK WE WANTED TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT THAT.

THE OBVIOUS ANSWER ABOUT HOW WE KEEP WORKING TOGETHER IS WE STAY OUT OF REHAB, YOU KNOW, MEANING IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE GREATEST DEMONS IN OUR LIFE AND THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS IS USUALLY SELF SABOTAGE.

AND LARRY HART HAD SOME DEMONS HE COULDN'T --HE COULDN'T WRANGLE.

AND THAT MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO MAINTAIN FRIENDSHIP.

AND I THINK THAT RICK AND I, WE DO TRY TO TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER.

>> AND MY FULL INTERVIEW WITH ETHAN TOMORROW ON THIS PROGRAM.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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