>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE UPCOMING DAYS WILL BE DECISIVE.

IRAN KNOWS THAT, AND THERE'S ALMOST NOTHING THEY CAN MILITARILY DO ABOUT IT.

>> U. S. GROUND TROOPS HEADING TO THE MIDDLE EAST, AS GAS PRICES HIT $4 A GALLON.

HOW LONG WILL THE IRAN WAR GO ON?

I'M JOINED BY FORMER U. S. NATO AMBASSADOR JULIANNE SMITH.

THEN -- >> IN LEBANON I'VE JUST INSTRUCTED TO FURTHER EXPAND THE EXISTING SECURITY ZONE IN ORDER TO DECISIVELY THWART THE THREAT OF INVASION.

>> THE ISRAELI MILITARY PUSHES FORWARD WITH OPERATIONS IN LEBANON.

JIM SHUTEO REPORTS IN LEBANON.

AND -- >> I AM HERE TO TELL YOU THAT MANY LEBANESE INCLUDING MANY SHIITES WANT A DIFFERENT FUTURE.

>> FROM BEIRUT I SPEAK WITH LYNN HARFOUSH, A POLITICAL ACTIVIST WHO CAME OF AGE IN HEZBOLLAH CONTROLLED SOUTHERN LEBANON.

PLUS -- >> I LOVE BEING JEWISH.

IT'S A SOURCE OF WONDERFUL ENRICHMENT AND JOY AND MEANING IN MY LIFE.

>> WALTER ISAACSON TALKS WITH VETERAN JOURNALIST NICHOLAS LEMANN ABOUT HIS DISCOVERY OF FAITH AND FAMILY.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVER AN.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

HITTING A WORLD ECONOMY ALREADY REELING FROM THE FALLOUT OF THE WAR.

AND WHILE EUROPE DEALS WITH ITS SECOND MAJOR ENERGY SHOCK IN LESS THAN FIVE YEARS, THE WHITE HOUSE IS VENTING ITS FRUSTRATION WITH THEM.

THIS MORNING PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTED A MESSAGE TO EUROPEAN ALLIES SAYING, QUOTE, YOU'LL HAVE TO START LEARNING HOW TO FIGHT FOR YOURSELF.

THE USA WON'T BE THERE TO HELP YOU ANYMORE, JUST LIKE YOU WEREN'T THERE FOR US.

AND IN A PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY WHEN ASKED IF THE U. S. IS STILL COMMITTED TO NATO'S COLLECTIVE DEFENSE, DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH SAID "THAT'S UP TO PRESIDENT TRUMP. "

>> WHEN WE ASK FOR ADDITIONAL ASSISTANCE OR SIMPLE ACCESS OVERFLIGHT WE GET QUESTIONS OR ROADBLOCKS OR HESITATIONS, AND THE PRESIDENT'S POINTING OUT YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH OF AN ALLIANCE IF YOU HAVE COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT WILLING TO STAND WITH YOU WHEN YOU NEED THEM.

>> THE ECONOMIC AND MILITARY FALLOUT FROM IRAN IS ADDING EVEN MORE PRESSURE TO UKRAINE'S WAR EFFORT.

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY SAID HE'S RECEIVED MESSAGES FROM SOME OF IRAN'S PARTNER URGING HIM TO SCALE BACK ATTACK ON THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHAT'S THE BEST COURSE ON IRAN AND NATO IN THE FACE OF WHITE HOUSE PRESSURE?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS JULIANNE SMITH WHO SERVED AS U. S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

JULIANNE, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO LET'S GO BACK TO WHAT WE HEARD FROM DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH ONCE AGAIN LAYING INTO NATO THIS MORNING AT HIS PRESS BRIEFING THERE ALONGSIDE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

KNOWING EUROPEAN LEADERSHIP THE WAY YOU DO, HOW DO YOU THINK THEY INTERPRETED HIS COMMENTS?

>> WELL, MY GUESS IS, AND IN SPEAKING WITH A COUPLE OF FOLKS IN EUROPE ALREADY JUST IN THE LAST HOUR, WHAT I THINK WE CAN EXPECT IS A LOT OF SHOCK ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC.

I MEAN, FOR SECRETARY HEGSETH TO SUGGEST THAT NATO ALLIES ARE NOT SHOWING UP IS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF EUROPEANS, I THINK, FIND SHOCKING.

THIS IS AN INTERVENTION, A WAR, A CONFLICT THAT THE U. S. BEGAN.

IT DIDN'T CONSULT WITH ITS EUROPEAN ALLIES.

IT DID NOT TAKE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS INTERVENTION TO NATO, TO THE NATO ALLIES TO WARN THEM THAT THERE COULD BE ASKS COMING FROM THE UNITED STATES.

AND SUDDENLY ABOUT A MONTH INTO THE CONFLICT NOW THE ADMINISTRATION IS EXPRESSING ENORMOUS FRUSTRATION THAT THE EUROPEAN ALLIES ARE SIMPLY NOT SHOWING UP.

NOW, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN RECENT WEEKS IS THAT 22 NATIONS BOTH IN THE INDO-PACIFIC AND EUROPE HAVE ISSUED STATEMENTS SAYING THAT WHEN THE VIOLENCE STOPS, WHEN THE CONFLICT STOPS THEY ARE WILLING TO LOOK AT WAYS TO HELP MONITOR AND MAINTAIN SAFETY AND SAFE PASSAGE IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

BUT RIGHT NOW NO EUROPEAN LEADER IS EXPRESSING ANY WILLINGNESS TO JOIN THE UNITED STATES IN THIS CONFLICT THAT IT STARTED ON ITS OWN WITH ISRAEL.

>> RIGHT.

AND WE HEARD AS MUCH FROM SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBE ON FRIDAY AS HE WAS DEPARTING WITH A MEETING WITH HIS COUNTER PARTS IN PARIS AT THE G7 AND SAYING THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT NEED NATO'S HELP RIGHT NOW.

WHAT WE DID TALK TO THOSE LEADERS ABOUT, HOWEVER, WAS THE DAY AFTER AND HOW TO REOPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, SAYING THAT THAT IS GOING TO BE LARGELY THEIR PROBLEM AS WELL.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, BECAUSE THE NARRATIVE THAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS PUTTING OUT THERE, WHETHER IT'S ACCURATE OR NOT, IS THAT WHEN THE UNITED STATES WAS IN A TIME OF NEED OR WAS IN A MILITARY CONFRONTATION, THAT ITS ALLIES AND NATO DID NOT COME TO ITS DEFENSE.

AND THIS IS A POINT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD EVEN SPECULATED ABOUT OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS ESPECIALLY INTO HIS SECOND TERM SAYING THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE FOR NATO.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE NATO ALLIES WILL BE THERE FOR THE UNITED STATES.

KNOWING ALL OF THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT THE NATO MEMBERS AT LEAST PUBLICLY LOOKING BACK COULD HAVE OR SHOULD HAVE RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF THIS CONFLICT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S REVIEW A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY.

SO THE NATO ALLIANCE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 76 YEARS, AND THERE'S A CLAUSE IN THE TREATY THAT SAYS WHEN ONE ALLY IS ATTACKED, ALL THE OTHER ALLIES WILL COME TO THEIR AID.

THAT'S ARTICLE 5 IN THE WASHINGTON TREATY.

THE ONLY TIME THAT NATO HAS INVOKED ARTICLE 5 OF THE WASHINGTON TREATY WAS AFTER 9/11.

THE UNITED STATES WAS OBVIOUSLY ATTACKED THAT DAY, AND NATO ALLIES STOOD UP AND CAME TO THE AID OF THE UNITED STATES AND JOINED US IN A 20-YEAR MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN.

SO EUROPEANS FIND IT A BIT INCREDULOUS.

THEY ARE IN SHOCK THAT THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT WOULD SUGGEST THAT EUROPE HAS NEVER BEEN, THAT NATO ALLIES HAVE NEVER BEEN WILLING TO STAND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH THE UNITED STATES WHEN IT'S UNDER ATTACK.

THE FACTS SIMPLY DON'T PROVE THAT TO BE TRUE.

NOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE LAST MONTH IF THE UNITED STATES HAD GONE TO ALLIES, TO INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES, I REALLY IN TRUTH DON'T SEE THIS AS A NATO MISSION, BUT THEY COULD HAVE CONSULTED WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES THROUGH NATO CHANNELS.

YOU CAN SIT DOWN WITH ALL 31 MEMBERS, TALK WITH THEM.

IF WE HAD BRIEFED THEM ON THE OPERATION, IF WE HAD WALKED THROUGH VARIOUS CONTINGENCIES, IF WE HAD MADE CERTAIN REQUESTS IN ADVANCE THAT WE WANTED THEIR ASSISTANCE WITH THE STRAIT, WITH INTELLIGENCE, ANYTHING, I THINK EUROPEANS WOULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT OPEN MINDED.

BUT WHERE THE EUROPEANS WHERE FRUSTRATED IS WHEN THEY HAD TO READ ABOUT THIS IN THE NEWSPAPER.

THERE WEREN'T ANY CONSULTATIONS IN ADVANCE, AND THEY ALSO FEEL QUITE CONFUSED, TO BE HONEST, ABOUT WHAT IS THE ACTUAL OBJECTIVE OF THIS MISSION?

ARE WE GOING AFTER IRANIAN MISSILES?

ARE WE GOING AFTER IRAN'S NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES?

IS IT REGIME CHANGE?

IS IT TO GET THE OIL, AS THE PRESIDENT SUGGESTED JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO?

AND I THINK THAT ALSO MAKES IT HARD FOR THE EUROPEANS OR, FRANKLY, ANY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD TO REALLY JOIN IN IN THE EFFORT IF THERE'S NOT A FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO DO.

AND THAT OBJECTIVE SEEMS TO CHANGE BY THE HOUR, SOMETIMES BY THE DAY DEPENDING ON WHICH U. S. OFFICIAL YOU'RE ACTUALLY HEARING FROM.

>> SO SET ASIDE WHETHER THE EUROPEANS SHOULD HAVE OR WEREN'T CONSULTED AHEAD OF THIS OPERATION AND WAR IN IRAN.

THE DRUM BEATS WERE PRETTY LOUD, THOUGH, IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

I MEAN, I REMEMBER AS WE WERE FOCUSED ON THE CRISIS OVER GREENLAND, AND THIS IS WHEN THE PRESIDENT WAS IN DAVOS AT THE START OF THIS YEAR, WE'D ALREADY SEEN TROOPS AMASSING AND SORT OF A BUILD UP THERE OF U. S. ASSETS IN THE REGION.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT EUROPEAN LEADERS FROM THEIR OWN SECURITY PERSPECTIVE WEREN'T PREPARED MORE FOR THIS POSSIBILITY?

>> MY SENSE IS THAT THE LEADERS IN EUROPE WERE CLOSELY MONITORING THE SITUATION.

THEY COULD OBVIOUSLY SEE THE BUILDUP OF U. S. FORCES.

THEY WERE MONITORING THE RHETORIC COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND OTHER AGENCIES ACROSS WASHINGTON, BUT THEY DIDN'T HEAR ANY REQUESTS COMING FROM THE UNITED STATES.

CERTAINLY, MY GUESS IS THAT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THEY WERE ASKING THEMSELVES WHERE THEY MIGHT BE ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.

THINGS LIKE MINE CLEARING OR INTELLIGENCE SHARING OR COUNTER DRONE ASSISTANCE.

ALTHOUGH THERE THAT'S WHERE THE UKRAINIANS ACTUALLY CAN PLAY A GREATER ROLE THAN MANY EUROPEAN ALLIES.

BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER ANY SORT OF OUTREACH TOWARDS EUROPE AND NOT A CLEAR INDICATION AS TO WHAT THE OBJECTIVES WERE, I THINK THE EUROPEANS HAD A HARD TIME LINING UP POSSIBLE FORMS OF ASSISTANCE.

BUT ALSO LET'S BE CLEAR HERE, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN IRAN ACROSS EUROPE.

THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES THAT YE UTILITY IN IT.

THEY'RE GLAD TO SEE THE DEGRADED IRANIAN MISSILE CAPABILITIES, AND THEY WERE THANKFUL FOR THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES TOOK ACTION WITH THE ISRAELIS.

THERE ARE OTHERS THAT FEEL THE OPPOSITE WAY.

THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT ARE DEEPLY UNEASY ABOUT WHAT THE U. S. IS DOING.

SO TALKING ABOUT EUROPE IS COMPLICATED BECAUSE THERE ARE A VARIETY OF VIEWS ACROSS THE CONTINENT.

>> AND A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES WITHIN THIS ALLIANCE AS WELL.

YOU MENTION PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND HIS ROLE IN THE WAR AND IRAN.

OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF CONCERN IN UKRAINE ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS FOR THAT WAR NOW INTO ITS FIFTH YEAR, AND WE DID SEE PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TRAVEL TO THE REGION AND MET WITH THE LEADERS THERE IN THE REGION, EVEN STRIKING DEALS WITH THEM.

HE'S CLAIMING THAT GULF NATIONS, BAHRAIN, OMAN, THEY'RE FORMALLY REQUESTING UKRAINE'S EXPERTISE ON DEFEATING IN PARTICULAR THE IRANIAN SHAHED DRONES.

HAS UKRAINE'S BATTLEFIELD INTELLIGENCE SUDDENLY BECOME A CRUCIAL ASSET FOR AMERICA'S OPERATION REGARDLESS OF WHAT U. S. OFFICIALS ARE SAYING PUBLICLY ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY AN INTERESTING MOMENT FOR UKRAINE BECAUSE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THEY'VE REALLY BEEN DESCRIBED AS A SECURITY CONSUMER, THAT THEY NEED OUR HELP.

THEY NEED EUROPE'S HELP.

THEY NEED THE UNITED STATES HELP, MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD TO HELP THEM DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY AGAINST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

WHAT'S CHANGED IN THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS IS THAT UKRAINE NOW HAS TRANSITIONED TO BECOME A SECURITY PROVIDER.

IT'S PROVIDING EXPERTISE AND TRAINING TO COUNTRIES IN THE GULF.

WE'VE SEEN THEM SEND ABOUT 200 EXPERTS TO THE REGION TO HELP THE GULF COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS DRONE THREAT COULD LOOK LIKE GOING FORWARD AND HOW THEY CAN BETTER GUARD THEMSELVES AGAINST THOSE TYPES OF DRONE ATTACKS.

ALSO THE UKRAINIANS VERY CLEVERLY ARE SIGNING LONG-TERM DEFENSE COOPERATION AGREEMENTS WITH THE LEADERS IN SAUDI ARABIA, IN CATARRH, IN THE UAE, EXET CETERA, AND WHAT THEY'RE GETTING IS EXCHANGING CHEAP DRONES FOR VERY HIGH-PRICED MISSILES AND INTERCEPTORS, WHICH THEY DESPERATELY NEED, AS WELL AS SOME FINANCIAL SUPPORT.

SO I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS MANAGED THIS QUITE WELL AND HE'S TRIED TO PROVIDE THE GULF STATES AND THE U. S. WITH INTELLIGENCE HE'S PICKING UP ON.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE THE RUSSIANS ARE PROVIDING SOME TARGETING ASSISTANCE TO THE IRANIANS THAT'S ALLOWING THEM TO GO AFTER U. S. TROOPS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN TRYING TO MAKE CLEAR TO U. S. OFFICIALS AS WELL AS THE REGION.

>> THAT RUSSIA IS PROVIDING INTELLIGENCE AND ASSISTING IRAN HERE IS ONLY GETTING PUSHBACK BY THE UNITED STATES NOT DENYING IT BUT BY SAYING --I'M GOING TO QUOTE WHAT SECRETARY RUBIO SAID, THAT RUSSIA IS DOING NOTHING TO IMPEDE OUR OPERATIONS.

ARE YE UNDERESTIMATING THE DIRECT MILITARY THREAT THAT RUSSIA COULD POSE TO U. S. OPERATIONS IN IRAN?

ARE WE IN A SENSE PERHAPS EVEN IN A PROXY BATTLE AT THIS POINT?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THE RUSSIA-IRANIAN RELATIONSHIP VERY SERIOUSLY.

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT WHEN RUSSIA STARTED THE WAR IN UKRAINE, IRAN PROVIDED DIRECT MILITARY ASSISTANCE.

THEY PROVIDED THEM WITH THOSE SHAHED DRONES AS WELL AS THOSE MISSILES THAT HAVE BEEN VERY IMPORTANT TO RUSSIA'S CAMPAIGN ON THE GROUND.

NOW IN A SIGN OF PERHAPS RETURNING THE FAVOR, THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE THAT RUSSIA IS PROVIDING SOME E. W. ASSISTANCE, ELECTRONIC WAR FAR, AND THAT POTENTIALLY THEY'RE GOING TO BE SENDING UPGRADED SHAHED'S THAT THEY'RE NOW PRODUCING IN RUSSIA TO IRAN.

SO THIS CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD WATCH VERY CLOSELY AND NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE DEEPENING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MOSCOW AND TEHRAN.

>> YEAH, AND THERE'S ALSO CONCERNS AS THIS WAR IS ENTERING ITS FIFTH WEEK WHETHER THERE WILL BE U. S. WEAPONS THAT HAD BEEN ON THEIR WAY TO EUROPE TO THEN GO TO UKRAINE, THAT ARE NOW BEING DIVERTED FOR THE UNITED STATES AND ITS STOCKPILE.

I DO WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS WAR THUS FAR NOT JUST ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE BUT OBVIOUSLY FOR THE ECONOMY OVERALL, THE SPIKE IN ENERGY PRICES.

AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS SAYING THAT WESTERN ALLIES --SO THIS LEADS ONE TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S MORE THAN ONE COUNTRY --ARE ACTIVELY PRESSURE KYIV TO HAUMT STRIKES ON RUSSIAN OIL FACILITIES TO PROTECT ENERGY PRICES.

SO HOW DOES THE COALITION FUNCTION IF THEIR GOAL IS TO HELP UKRAINE BUT BASICALLY RIGHT NOW TELLING UKRAINE TO CONTINUE FIGHTING YOUR WAR WITH ONE HAND TIED BEHIND YOUR BACK?

>> WELL, THE STRIKES DEEP INSIDE RUSSIA HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A BIT CONTROVERSIAL.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VIEWS ACROSS THE NATO ALLIANCE ON THE DEGREE TO WHICH THE UKRAINIANS SHOULD BE USING LONG-RANGE WEAPONS TO TARGET RUSSIA HUNDREDS OF KILOMETERS INSIDE ITS TERRITORY.

WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE OR CITIES THEMSELVES OR EVEN DEFENSE PRODUCTION.

LATELY WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT THE UKRAINIANS QUITE CLEVERLY HAVE BEEN EVER TO REACH EVER DEEPER INTO RUSSIAN TERRITORY, AND NOW THEY ARE ACTIVELY IN SOME CASES GOING AFTER ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

I THINK THE QUESTION FOR EUROPE THAT THEY BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO FEEL THE SHOCK, THE ENERGY SHOCK OF THIS WAR IN IRAN QUITE SOON, POSSIBLY IN WEEKS AS NOW ASIA IS ALREADY FEELING, THAT THEY ARE WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT UKRAINE GOING AFTER THOSE FACILITIES WILL ONLY MAKE THE SITUATION MUCH WORSE.

IT'S COMPLICATED.

EUROPE HAS REDUCED ITS DEPENDENCY ON RUSSIAN OIL AND GAS SINCE THE WAR IN UKRAINE STARTED, BUT SOME COUNTRIES DO STILL RELY ON THAT, AND MAY FIND THEMSELVES IN THE FUTURE TURNING TO RUSSIA FOR ENERGY.

>> AND QUICKLY JUST TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, IT'S COMPLICATED I KNOW AS YOU SAID, BUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY DOESN'T SEEM WILLING TO BE BACK OFF WITH THIS STRATEGY BECAUSE IN HIS VIEW HE SAYS THIS IS HURTING VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHERE HE THINKS THIS COULD ACTUALLY BE THE MOST VULNERABLE POSITION FOR PUTIN IF HIS GOES ON LONGER TO BRING HIM TO SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT ARGUMENT?

>> WELL, ZELENSKYY'S THINKING IS, LOOK, RUSSIA RIGHT NOW IS SEEING A HUGE WINDFALL IN ITS OIL REVENUES.

I MEAN, IT HAS COMPLETELY REVERSED THE SITUATION.

THE OIL REVENUE EARNINGS THAT RUSSIA HAD IN THE MONTH OF FEBRUARY WERE QUITE LOW HISTORICALLY COMPARED TO THE PAST, AND NOW WE'VE SEEN A COMPLETE REVERSAL OF FORTUNE IN THAT RUSSIA NOW IS BENEFITTING FROM THIS WAR IN IRAN.

AND SO I THINK FOR ZELENSKYY HE'S TRYING TO IMAGINE WAYS IN WHICH HE PERSONALLY CAN PUT ADDED PRESSURE ON MOSCOW TO GET THEM TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AND FEEL LIKE THEY'RE LOSING.

HE OBVIOUSLY IS IN A VERY DIFFERENT POSITION THAN THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE SUPPORTING HIM RIGHT NOW, BUT I THINK THAT'S THE LOGIC OF HIS THINKING ONGOING AFTER THESE ENERGY FACILITIES.

AND LET'S NOT FORGET RUSSIA HAS VERY AGGRESSIVELY GONE AFTER UKRAINE'S INFRASTRUCTURE AND ITS ENERGY FACILITIES FOR MANY YEARS AND HASN'T HELD BACK IN ANY REGARD FROM DOING SO OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> YEAH, UKRAINIAN DRONE STRIKES HAVE KNOCKED OUT RUSSIA'S PRINCIPAL BALTIC OIL TERMINAL, AND THAT HAS PROVEN TO BE QUITE COSTLY FOR RUSSIA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, JULIANNE SMITH.

WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW ISRAEL IS ESSKATING ITS WAR IN LEBANON.

MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAELI STRIKES INCLUDING AT LEAST 125 CHILDREN AND 50 HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

AND FRANCE CALLED FOR AN EMERGENCY MEETING OF THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL AFTER TWO U. S. PEACE KEEPERS WILL KILLED IN LEBANON ON MONDAY.

ISRAEL SAYS HEZBOLLAH WAS RESPONSIBLE.

AND WE LEARNED TODAY FOUR ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE KILLED IN COMBAT WITH HEZBOLLAH.

TEN AND DIED SO FAR IN THE LATEST OFFENSIVE.

IN NORTHERN ISRAEL, THEY WELCOME THE PUSH TO SECURE THE BORDER FROM HEZBOLLAH'S ATTACK AS CORRESPONDENT JIM SCIUTTO REPORTS.

>> IT'S A FACT OF LIFE ON ISRAEL'S NORTHERN BORDER THAT INCOMING HEZBOLLAH FIRE COMES FREQUENTLY AND WITHOUT WARNING.

SO THIS IS LIFE UP IN THE NORTH.

THEY SAY ABOUT 40 WARNINGS ABOUT THAT A DAY.

WE JUST HAD TWO OF THEM IN THE SPAN OF FIVE MINUTES.

A COMBINATION OF ROCKETS, SOMETIMES ANTI-TANK MISSILES, BUT ALSO INCREASINGLY DRONES.

AND SOME OF THEM CAN'T BE INTERCEPTED.

THE KIBBUTZ LIES ABOUT A MILE FROM LEBANON.

AFTER THE OCTOBER 7, 2023, HAMAS ATTACKS, ISRAEL EVACUATED COMMUNITIES LIKE THESE.

BUT DURING THIS WAR, THEY'RE STAYING.

>> OUR CHILDREN IN THE SHELTER FOR MORE THAN 29 DAYS.

IN A SHELTER, NOT ALLOWING TO GO OUT.

YOU KNOW, ALL THE ECONOMIC ECOSYSTEM COLLAPSE.

>> WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT ISRAELI FORCES ARE PUSHING INTO SOUTHERN LEBANON.

THEY SAY TO PUSH HEZBOLLAH FURTHER BACK.

THIS COMPANY COMMANDER, THE IDF ONLY ALLOWS US TO IDENTIFY HIM AS CAPTAIN M. , REGULARLY LEADS OPERATIONS INSIDE LEBANON.

WHAT LEADS YOU TO GO ACROSS?

IS IT A PARTICULAR THREAT?

OR IS IT JUST ESTABLISHING A REGULAR PRESENCE?

>> IT'S A BIT OF BOTH.

MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IT'S A CONCRETE THREAT THAT WE GET FROM INTELLIGENCE THAT WE HAVE TERRORISTS THAT ARE TRYING TO COME NEAR TO BORDER, THAT WE HAVE AMMUNITION THAT IS STORED SOMEWHERE, THAT THERE ARE TUNNELS, WHATEVER IT IS.

>> VISITING THE NORTH HIMSELF SUNDAY PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU ANNOUNCED ISRAELI FORCES WOULD PUSH EVEN FURTHER INTO LEBANON.

>> IN LEBANON I'VE JUST INSTRUCTED TO FURTHER EXPAND THE EXISTING SECURITY ZONE IN ORDER TO DECISIVELY THWART THE THREAT OF INVASION AND TO PUSH ANTI-TANK MISSILE FIRE AWAY FROM OUR BORDER.

>> IT'S A MOVE THAT NORTHERN RESIDENTS WELCOME.

>> THIS TIME THE IDF ACTUALLY DID WHAT US, THE CIVIL SOCIETY THAT SETTLED HERE YEARS AGO, EXPECT THEM TO DO.

>> WHICH IS?

>> TO GO IN FRONT OF US, NOT BEHIND US.

WE CANNOT BE THE FIRST LINE OF HEZBOLLAH.

>> THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT NOW SPEAKS OF MILITARY OPERATIONS ALL THE WAY UP TO THE LITANI RIVER, SOME 20 MILES INTO LEBANESE TERRITORY.

TO CREATE THIS SO-CALLED BUFFER ZONE, ISRAEL HAS NOW FORCED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LEBANESE CIVILIANS FROM THEIR HOMES IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY.

AND YET HEZBOLLAH FIRE CONTINUES.

TODAY THE IDF IS PREPARED TO OPERATE INSIDE LEBANON FOR AS LONG AS THEY ARE ORDERED TO.

>> I CAN TELL YOU THAT WHEN WE GET AN ORDER, WE WILL DO WHATEVER WE NEED TO DO, AND I THINK AND I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE ARMY WILL MAKE DECISION FOR WHAT IS BEST FOR THE ISRAELI CIVILIANS THAT LIVE HERE.

>> THE QUESTIONS FOR ISRAEL ARE HOW MUCH FURTHER INTO LEBANON AND FOR HOW LONG?

FOR NOW ISRAELI OFFICIALS LEAVE THOSE QUESTIONS UNANSWERED.

>> OUR THANKS TO JIM SCIUTTO REPORTING THERE.

WELL, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER ISRAEL KATZ REITERATED TODAY THAT ISRAEL WILL POSITION ITSELF IN A SECURITY ZONE SOUTH OF THE LITANI RIVER IN LEBANON AND STAY THERE AFTER THE CURRENT OPERATION ENDS.

WHAT WILL THAT MEAN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE INSIDE THE PLANNED SECURITY ZONE?

KATZ SAYS THAT MORE THAN 600,000 EVACUATED RESIDENTS WILL BE PROHIBITED FROM RETURNING UNTIL NORTHERN ISRAEL IS DECLARED SAFE AND THAT HOMES AND VILLAGES NEAR THE BORDER WILL BE DESTROYED TO REMOVE THREATS, CITING THE IDF MODEL IN GAZA.

WELL, POLITICAL ACTIVIST LYNN HARFOUSH GREW UP IN THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS IN A REGION CONTROLLED BY HEZBOLLAH.

THOUGH SHE ONCE SUPPORTED THE ISRAEL GROUP SHE NOW OPPOSES THEM AND OPPOSES THEIR OCCUPATION.

SHE NOW JOINS ME FROM BEIRUT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE CONFLICT ANOTHER ONE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH, I WANT TO TELL OUR AUDIENCE A BIT MORE ABOUT YOU AND YOUR BACK STORY.

YOU RECENTLY SPOKE ABOUT THE U. N. SECURITY COUNCIL A FEW WEEKS AGO AND NOTED YOU GREW UP NOTING NOTHING EXCEPT FOR HEZBOLLAH HEGEMONY AND YOU ONCE SUPPORTED THEM, AND NOW YOU'RE OPENLY OPPOSED TO THEM.

YOU TOLD THE SECURITY COUNCIL THAT AFTER THE 2006 WAR, THE MASK FELL OFF.

YOU HAD RETURNED TO YOUR DESTROYED NEIGHBORHOOD AND REALIZED HEZBOLLAH WAS EXPLOITING LEBANON AND THE CITIZENS THERE INCLUDING YOUR FAMILY FOR AN IST PROJECT.

SO WAS THAT THE TURNING POINT FOR YOU SOME 20 YEARS AGO?

AND JUST WALK US THROUGH WHERE YOU STAND TODAY.

>> HELLO, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

YES, AS I MENTIONED IN MY SPEECH IN FRONT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL I GREW UP IN BEIRUT'S SOUTHERN SUBURB, WHICH HAD HEZBOLLAH HEGEMONY OVER IT AND OVER THE ENTIRE SHIITE COMMUNITY.

IT WAS NORMAL FOR US HEZBOLLAH WAS A RESISTANCE SAVING US FROM ISRAELI OPPRESSION.

HOWEVER, WITH TIME WE CAME TO REALIZE THAT HEZBOLLAH WAS ACTUALLY AN IRANIAN ARMED MILITIA ACTING FOR WHAT'S THE BEST OF IRAN'S INTERESTS, AND THE 2006 WAR SPECIFICALLY AFTER WE RETURNED, THEN WE SAW OUR HOMES DOWN AND WE SAW HOW HEZBOLLAH STARTED ACTING WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WITH EXCESSIVE FORCE AND EXCESSIVE POWER.

AND THEN WE OBSERVED HEZBOLLAH TRYING TO PULL OUR SHIITE COMMUNITY AWAY FROM ALL THE OTHER COMMUNITIES, TRIGGERING INNER CONFLICT AND MAKING US BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE COMING FOR US, AND MAKING US THINK THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY PROTECTORS, REFUSING THE IDEA OF THE STATE.

WE CAME TO REALIZE THAT HEZBOLLAH WAS, IN FACT, THE PROBLEM AND THAT IT HAD BEEN DRAGGING US INTO WARS.

AND OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS I'VE BEEN QUITE A FIERCE OPPOSITION OF HEZBOLLAH AND ITS HEGEMONY OVER THE COMMUNITY.

AND IT HAS PROVED TO US OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT WHAT IT CONSIDERS FOREMOST IMPORTANT IS IRANIAN INTERESTS AND NOT THE LEBANESE ONES.

>> AND YET YOU ALSO NOTE YOUR OPPOSITION TO AN ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

AND AS I'VE JUST NOTED, THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER SAYING THAT HE HAS NOW UNVEILED PLANS FOR SOUTHERN LEBANON SIMILAR TO THE OPERATIONS IN GAZA, PROPOSING 15 TO 20-MILE SECURITY BUFFER, OVER A MILLION LEBANESE CITIZENS >> IN REALITY THIS MEANS THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS SAFE AREA AND NO SUCH THING AS PEOPLE EXCLUDED FROM THIS WAR.

ISRAEL HAS BEEN COMMITTING CRIMES AGAINST CIVILIANS AND JOURNALISTS INCLUDED.

IT CLAIMS THIS JOURNALIST IS PART OF HEZBOLLAH MILITIA, AND THIS IS NOT SOMETHING I'M HERE TO DISCUSS, BUT ALSO MANY OTHER JOURNALISTS HAVE ALSO BEEN PART OF THIS --HAVE ALSO BEEN PART OF THIS ISRAELI AGGRESSION.

SO BASICALLY IN REALITY IT IS COMING AFTER JOURNALISTS.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE COMPLETELY DISAGREE OF REGARDLESS WHAT POLITICAL OPINION THIS JOURNALIST HAS.

AS FOR THE U. N. PEACE KEEPERS, WE KNOW THAT BOTH HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL HAVE BEEN AGAINST THE U. N. PEACE KEEPERS, AND WE'RE VERY SORRY THAT MORE LIVES HAVE TO BE SACRIFICED IN THIS TURMOIL ESPECIALLY THIS IS NOT OUR WAR, BUT IT IS THE WAR OF IRAN AND ISRAEL AND THE LEBANESE PEOPLE ARE BEING HELD CAPTIVE OF THIS CONFLICT.

THE U. N. PEACE KEEPERS HAD A SOLE PURPOSE OF RESTORING PEACE, THIS IS THE OBJECTIVE THAT WE ALSO WANT RIGHT NOW.

>> YEAH, LET ME PLAY SOUND OF DANI WHO IS ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATION IN RESPONSE SP TO THE KILLING OF THE WORKERS.

>> REGARDING THE ATTACK THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY, MARCH 30th, WE CAN CONFIRM NOW THAT FORCES WERE HIT BY HEZBOLLAH EXPLOSIVE DEVICES IN AN INCIDENT IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

ISRAEL DID NOT CHOOSE THIS CONFLICT.

HEZBOLLAH DID.

>> SO WITHOUT DIGGING TOO DEEP INTO THE BLAME GAME HERE, I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO FOCUS ON, LYNN, IS THE PARTY THAT HAS BEEN ABSENT THUS FAR IN OUR CONVERSATION, AND THAT IS THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT ITSELF.

AS YOU'VE MENTIONED AND AS YOU'VE NOTED, MORE AND MORE LEBANESE CITIZENS ARE BECOMING DISILLUSIONED, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY AT HEZBOLLAH FOR WHAT THEY SEE AS BEING A BRANCH AND AN ARM OF IRAN FOCUSED MORE ON IRAN'S DEMANDS AND NEEDS THAN ITS OWN PEOPLE.

AND THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT TOOK AN UNPRECEDENTED STEP IN DESIGNATING IRAN'S AMBASSADOR, PERSONA NON GRATA.

HE'S FLAT OUT REFUSED TO LEAVE.

DOES THIS EXPOSE A WEAKNESS --A FATAL WEAKNESS BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THE AUTHORITY HAS BEEN WEAK?

BUT THE FACT THAT HE WON'T LEAVE, HOW DETRIMENTAL IS THAT TO THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT'S LEADERSHIP AND AUTHORITY?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS YET ANOTHER TIME WHERE HEZBOLLAH STANDS AGAINST THE STATE.

YES, IT DOES EXPOSE A CERTAIN WEAKNESS, BUT IT IS NOT A FATAL ONE.

AND WE STILL BELIEVE THAT THE STATE AND ALL OF ITS INSTITUTIONS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THIS WAR.

BUT WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO LEARN FROM THIS, FROM WHETHER THIS INCIDENT OR ALL THE OTHER INCIDENTS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN TERMS OF CONFRONTATION BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND THE STATE IS THAT HEZBOLLAH'S PRIMARY ENEMY IS NOT REALLY ISRAEL.

IT'S THE LEBANESE STATE ITSELF, BECAUSE IT'S A STRONG AND FUNCTIONING STATE.

IT'S CAPABLE ENSURING SECURITY, STABILITY, NEGOTIATING ISRAEL'S WITHDRAWAL, AND PROTECTING ALL LEBANESE CITIZENS EQUALLY.

BUT IF SUCH A STATE WERE TO FULLY EMERGE, THEN WHAT ROLE WOULD REMAIN FOR HEZBOLLAH?

IT'S VERY JUSTIFICATION TO EXIST WILL GO AWAY.

AND THIS IS WHY HEZBOLLAH CONTINUOUSLY FUELS INTERNAL DIVISIONS AND UNDERMINES STATE INSTITUTIONS, AND FIGURES THROUGH CONFRONTATIONS LIKE THE ONE IT DID FOR THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR.

HEZBOLLAH THRIVES IN CONDITIONS OF CONFLICT BOTH DOMESTIC AND EXTERNAL.

AND ITS RELIANCE ON ONGOING TENSION HELPS EXPLAIN ITS REPEATED ROLE IN DRAGGING LEBANON INTO WARS THAT WE DID NOT CHOOSE AS WELL AS ITS PERSISTENT DEFIANCE OF STATE AUTHORITY.

>> THEN THERE'S THE QUESTION OF WHAT ROLE THE UNITED STATES CAN PLAY HERE, AND YOU'VE ARGUED THAT SUPPORTING THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES ISN'T CHARITY.

IT'S A NECESSARY INVESTMENT IN REGIONAL STABILITY.

AND THERE ARE THOSE --THERE ARE MANY EVEN ISRAELI ANALYSTS WHO VIEW THIS EXPANDED OPERATION AS A BAD IDEA FROM ISRAEL'S PERSPECTIVE AND THEIR OWN SECURITY.

BUT THERE IS THE ARGUMENT THAT WE'VE HEARD TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT THE REALITY SHOWS ONLY THE IDF CAN AGGRESSIVELY TACKLE AND FIGHT AGAINST HEZBOLLAH AND WEAKEN IT TO A PLACE OR WILLING TO FIGHT AND WEAKEN IT TO A PLACE THAT THEN THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES CAN TAKE OVER FROM.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ARGUMENT?

AND WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET THERE?

WHY IS THE LEBANESE ARMY NOT DOING MORE HERE?

>> WELL, NO, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS THEORY BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT HEZBOLLAH'S REBELLIOUS AGAINST THE STATE END NEEDS TO BE PUT TO THAT TO THE STATE ITSELF.

OF COURSE THERE'S A ROLE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN PLAY AND THE UNITED STATES CAN PLAY.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING I MENTION IN MY SPEECH AND SOMETHING I SAY AGAIN.

WE CANNOT ACCEPT FOR LEBANESE INTERESTS TO BE COMPROMISED ON AGAIN.

THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE DURING THE NEGOTIATIONS OF THE NUCLEAR DEAL AND WHEN INTERNATIONAL ACTORS CHOSE TO OVERLOOK IRAN'S PROXIES AND THE NETWORKS THAT THEY SUSTAINED.

UNFORTUNATELY, LEBANON CANNOT BEAR TO BE SIDELINED AGAIN.

WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW IS SUSTAINED AND SERIOUS SUPPORT TO THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES, WHICH ARE THE SOLE LEGITIMATE MILITARY INSTITUTION WITH THE CREDIBILITY TO UNITE THE LEBANESE PEOPLE, AND STRENGTHENING THIS ARMY IS NOT OPTIONAL, BUT IT IS THE ESSENTIALLY THING TO RESTORE THE SOVEREIGNTY AND THE STABILITY OF THIS COUNTRY.

THIS STATE HAS TAKEN VERY IMPORTANT DECISIONS, AND NOW IT IS A MATTER OF IMPLEMENTATION.

AND FOR THIS IMPLEMENTATION TO HAPPEN, ALL THE STATE INSTITUTIONS, ITS MILITARY, ITS DIPLOMATIC AND THE SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS NEED THE MAXIMUM SUPPORT THERE IS BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE BATTLING AGAINST IS A MILITIA SUPPORTED BY IRAN.

AND THE STATE ALONE CAN'T DO IT.

WE HAVE LIMITED RESOURCES, AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE IN ONE OF THE WORST FINANCIAL CRISIS EVER.

WE NEED TO ACT UPON THAT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO NEED GUARANTEES THAT ISRAEL WILL FULLY WITHDRAW FROM THE LEBANESE TERRITORY.

WE WILL NOT GIVE UP OR COMPROMISE AN INCH OF OUR LAND JUST BECAUSE HEZBOLLAH DECIDED TO TURN IT INTO A BATTLEFIELD, AND THE STATE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS CAPABLE OF ACCOMPLISHING THAT.

>> IS THERE STILL AMONG THE POPULATION AND SPECIFICALLY THE POPULATION MOST AFFECTED BY THIS CURRENT CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AND POTENTIALLY BEING REMOVED FROM THEIR HOMES AND DISPLACED AGAIN.

IS THERE STILL FAITH AND SUPPORT IN THE CURRENT LEBANESE GOVERNMENT, AS WEAK AS IT IS, THAT THESE ARE IN FACT THE ACTORS, THE PEOPLE STARTING FROM THE PRESIDENT AUN WHO YOU HAVE TRUST IN STILL WORKING TO BRING THIS TO A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION OR A CEASE-FIRE?

>> THE WAY TO REGAIN THE GOVERNMENT'S TRUST IS TO SHOW SOME CONCRETE ACTIONS.

THE FACT IS ISRAEL'S PLAN AND ITS OCCUPATION OF THE SOUTH IS REALLY NOT BUILDING THE CASE, AND IT IS CAUSING THIS POPULATION THAT IS MOSTLY AFFECTED BY THE DISPLACEMENT TO FEEL THAT HEZBOLLAH IS THEIR ONLY RESORT OF PROTECTION.

AND THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS BECAUSE WHAT THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION IS DOING RIGHT NOW IS IT IS RELEGITIMIZING THE EXISTENCE OF HEZBOLLAH.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN FOR ALL OF THE POPULATION TO RESTORE ITS FAITH IN THE GOVERNMENT IS CONCRETE ACTIONS.

THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES NEED TO START DEMANTLING HEZBOLLAH, AND THIS MEANS ALL OF ITS INSTITUTIONS WHETHER MILITARY, EDUCATIONAL, SOCIAL, FINANCIAL, AND ALL THE OTHER INSTITUTIONS RELATED TO HEZBOLLAH NEED TO BE DISMANTLED.

THE LOCATIONS THAT HE TOOK OVER IN THE BEIRUT SOUTHERN SUBURB THAT HAVE AN ENTIRE INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATION SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE CONTROLLED BY THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES, IF THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE STATE IS CAPABLE OF FIGHTING AGAINST IT.

>> LYNN HARFOUSH, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR OFFERING YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, WITH PASSOVER APPROACHING, JEWS ACROSS THE GLOBE PREPARE TO CELEBRATE, AND MANY CITIES ARE HEIGHTENING SECURITY AROUND SYNAGOGUES AMID THE WAR WITH IRAN.

SCENT SEMITISM HAS BEEN SURGING SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, AND OUR NEXT GUEST IS PART OF THE TASK FORCE TACKLING IT AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

IN HIS NEW BOOK PROFESSOR NICHOLAS LEMANN DEVILS DEEP INTO HIS FAMILY HISTORY AS THE SON OF JEWS.

AND HE SPEAKS ABOUT HIS CONNECTION WITH HIS FAITH AND HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE WIDER ISRAEL.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND NICHOLAS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'VE WIN THIS VERY RICH MEMOIR AND MULTIGENERATIONAL HISTORY MUCH DIFFERENT FROM YOUR NONFICTION BOOKS OF THE PAST.

WHAT SET YOU ON THIS JOURNEY?

>> WELL, I STARTED TO GET INTERESTED IN MY FAMILY HISTORY.

AND THAT'S A THING THAT HAPPENS TO MOST PEOPLE LATER IN LIFE, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO ALL PEOPLE LATER IN LIFE.

BUT A CERTAIN SUBSET OF THOSE OVER A CERTAIN AGE KIND OF GET OBSESSED.

AND I THINK THE REASON FOR THAT IS FOR A LOT OF YOUR LIFE AND FOR SOME PEOPLE FOR THEIR WHOLE LIFE THEY THINK IT'S JUST ME ON STAGE, YOU KNOW, ENACTING MY LIFE, AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY MATTERS.

BUT SOMETIMES YOU START THINKING, WELL, I'M ACTUALLY A LINK ON A CHAIN, AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE ME AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO CAME AFTER ME, AND THAT'S WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT I DID AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

SO YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT WHO YOU CAME FROM SO THE PEOPLE WHO COME AFTER YOU CAN KNOW MORE.

AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF IT, WALTER, IS THAT THERE WAS A --IT'S LIKE THE PROVERBIAL ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

I'M FROM NEW ORLEANS LIKE YOU, SO YOU KNOW THAT I HAVE A LOT OF COUSINS.

AND ONE OF MY COUSINS MANY YEARS AGO GATHERED UP A LOT OF FAMILY PAPERS AND PUT THEM AT TULAIN UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU TEACH.

IT'S OVER 100 LINEAR FEET OF MATERIAL.

I KIND OF KNEW IT WAS THERE MY WHOLE LIFE.

AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THE ONE THING I'M NOT GOING TO DO IS LOOK IN THIS MATERIAL.

THEN I DECIDED THAT'S A LITTLE PERVERSE, SO I'M GOING TO LOOK IN THE MATERIAL.

YOU KNOW, THE REST IS HISTORY, AS THEY SAY.

>> YOU KNOW, WE BIOGRAPHERS LIKE TO THINK THAT CLUE NUMBER ONE TO ANYBODY IS IT'S ALL ABOUT DAD.

AND, BOY, IS THAT THE CASE IN THIS BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FATHER, THOMAS LEMANN, AND HIS FEELINGS ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING A SOUTHERNER.

>> WELL, HE WAS -- YOU KNEW HIM, SO WE SHOULD NOTE THAT.

AND HE WAS A REMARKABLE CHARACTER, A BRILLIANT AND ECCENTRIC GUY, A LAWYER IN NEW ORLEANS.

ON THE JEWISH FRONT HE WAS I GUESS WHAT WE'D CALL VERY, VERY ASSIMILATED.

WE BELONGED TO A REFORMED TEMPLE, AND HE WOULD TAKE US THERE ONCE A YEAR, AND THAT DAY WAS THANKSGIVING.

SO HE WAS INTO SORT OF LEAVING WHATEVER RESTRICTIONS AND CONFINES THERE WERE TO BEING JEWISH PARTICULARLY IN NEW ORLEANS AND, YOU KNOW, BECOMING A FAUX MEMBER OF THE WIDER WORLD, NOT BEING REAL ETHNIC.

BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS VERY SOUTHERN AND PROUD TO BE A SOUTHERNER.

HE LIVED IN --I MEAN, IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE.

HE DIED AT THE AGE OF 97 IN THE SAME HOSPITAL WHERE HE WAS BORN.

THAT HOSPITAL IS WHERE HIS MOTHER WORKED AS A NURSE, AND THERE WAS A PLAQUE OUTSIDE HIS ROOM MEMORIALIZING HER SERVICE, AND IT'S THE SAME HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS BORN.

SO IT'S A VERY, YOU KNOW, TRADITIONAL, NON-MOBILE, IF YOU WILL, AMERICAN WORLD, AND WE FELT LIKE WE WERE DEEPLY, DEEPLY ROOTED IN THE SOUTH.

NOW, ONE OF THE SURPRISES OF MY RESEARCH WAS - -I HAD NO IDEA OF THIS --I FOUND THAT MY FAMILY ACTUALLY HAD MOVED TO NEW YORK BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR AND LEFT THE SOUTH, SO I HAD TO SORT OF PROCESS THAT.

IF WE WERE SO SOUTHERN WHY DID WE LEAVE WAY BACK THEN?

AND IF WE WERE SO UN-SOUTHERN, WHY DID WE MOVE BACK?

>> THERE'S A STORY IN YOUR BOOK THAT, YOU KNOW, STRUCK ME, WHICH INVOLVED AN INVITATION YOU GOT TO A JUNIOR MARDI GRAS BALL AND YOUR FATHER'S REACTION.

TELL ME THAT AND TELL ME HOW THAT INFORMED THE BOOK.

>> OKAY.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, GIVEN THAT NOT ALL OF THE VIEWERS WILL BE FROM NEW ORLEANS, YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE EXPLAINING.

LIKE, YOU KNOW, PULITZER PRIZES, NOBEL PRIZES, HAVING YOUR COMPANY DO AN IPO, THE EQUIVALENT OF THAT IN NEW ORLEANS WE GREW UP IN IS THESE SOCIAL MARDI GRAS ASSOCIATIONS.

THEY'RE THE PINNACLE OF EVERYTHING AND THEY MATTER TO PEOPLE, SO THAT'S THE CONTEXT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I GOT AN INVITATION TO A SORT OF JUNIOR MARDI GRAS BALL THAT I DIDN'T RESPOND TO.

I WAS, LIKE, 13, AND MY FATHER CAME TO MY ROOM VERY SERIOUSLY AND SAID, YOU KNOW, DID YOU GET THIS INVITATION.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE THE FIRST JEWISH KID EVER TO BE INVITED TO THIS BALL, AND YOU NEED TO ACCEPT BECAUSE IT'S A STEP FORWARD FOR OUR PEOPLE, AND WE'RE GOING TO STOP --THESE ORGANIZATIONS TYPICALLY DIDN'T LET JEWS IN.

WE'RE GOING TO --OUR GENERATION'S GOING TO END THAT, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE FULLY ACCEPTED.

BUT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO INVITE A COUPLE OF GUESTS.

DON'T INVITE ANY JEWISH GUESTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PUSH THIS TOO FAST.

SO THAT WAS WHEN I WAS KIND OF OFFICIALLY INTRODUCED TO THIS --ONE OF THE ENDLESS VARIATIONS OF THIS STRUGGLE ABOUT ASSIMILATING, WHAT YOU GIVE UP, WHAT YOU GAIN, WHAT YOU MIGHT GAIN, ET CETERA.

AND IT SORT OF WENT ON FROM THERE.

>> THIS BOOK IS BASICALLY ABOUT THE ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT.

THAT TOOK YOU ALL THE WAY BACK TO GERMANY FOUR OR FIVE GENERATIONS AGO.

HOW DOES THAT ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT FOR JEWS, AND FOR THAT MATTER PROBABLY ANY OTHER GROUP FEELS AN ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT.

HOW DID THAT GET INVOLVED?

>> IN A FUNNY WAY THE STORY OF ASSIMILATED JEWS REALLY BEGINS WITH ONE PERSON, WHICH A MAN NAMED MOSES MENDELSON, WHO RODE INTO THE GATES OF BERLIN ON A DONKEY IN 1743.

AND HE WAS REALLY THE --I MEAN, JEWS DID NOT LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE EXCLUSIVELY JEWISH WORLD INCLUDING MY FAMILY.

IN MEASLIEST DAYS MY FAMILY, WE DIDN'T HAVE LAST NAMES, WHICH WAS TYPICAL OF JEWS.

SO THERE'S THIS WHOLE STORY IN GERMANY BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO AMERICA OF JEWS TRYING TO JOIN THE MODERN WORLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S TWO SIDES TO THE STORY.

ONE IS WOULD THE REST OF THE WORLD LET US JOIN?

AND THE OTHER IS WHAT WOULD WE LOSE IF WE DID JOIN?

SO THERE'S THESE STRUGGLES THAT JUST GO ON FOREVER.

AND AS YOU SAY, THEY GO ON FOR ALL ETHNIC GROUPS, YOU KNOW?

GO WATCH "THE GODFATHER" FOR THE 50th TIME.

IT'S AN AMERICAN STORY.

>> WHAT ARE THE LESSONS ABOUT DESIRING TO ASSIMILATE?

THAT SEEMS SOMETIMES LEADS TO GREAT TRAGEDIES ESPECIALLY IN GERMANY IN THE 1930s.

WHAT DO THEY LESSONS ABOUT THE DESIRE TO ASSIMILATE HAVE FOR TODAY WHEN THERE'S BEEN A RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM BOTH IN EUROPE AND IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, THERE WAS THIS LONG RUNNING PROCESS IN GERMANY CALLED JEWISH EMANCIPATION, WHICH WAS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL 1871.

THAT WAS WHEN JEWS BECAME COMPLETELY, YOU KNOW, FULL CITIZENS WITH FULL RIGHTS OF THE GERMAN NATION.

AND THEN BY TEN YEARS LATER THERE WAS A VERY ACTIVE ANTI-SEMITIC MOVEMENT IN GERMANY THAT SORT OF BUILT AND BUILT UNTIL YOU GOT THE NAZIS.

SO IN AMERICA TODAY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE HALF ROUGHLY OF THE JEWS IN THE WORLD --THERE AREN'T THAT MANY -- LIVING IN ISRAEL.

AND YOU HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ANTI-ISRAEL SENTIMENT BOTH ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, MOST AMERICAN JEWS WERE RAISED TO THINK THAT ISRAEL IS OUR HOMELAND AND EVEN IF WE DON'T LIVE THERE IT'S PART OF OUR IDENTITY.

BUT ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE YOUNGER, YOU REALLY GET CHALLENGED ON THAT AND KIND OF ASKED ARE YOU A ZIONIST.

AND SO PEOPLE LIKE MY KIDS REALLY STRUGGLE WITH THAT.

IT'S ALMOST EVERY FAMILY I KNOW HAS SOME KIND OF INTERNAL DISSENSION OVER THAT.

IT'S A TOUGH TIME NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM ALTHOUGH THERE'S THAT, BUT THE INTERNAL, YOU KNOW, QUESTIONING OF HOW TO DO CITIZENSHIP IN THE U. S. AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

IS ASSIMILATION A GOOD IDEA?

ARE YOU ACCEPTED IN THE WIDER WORLD?

THOSE ARE ALL REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS THAT A LOT OF US ARE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW.

>> AFTER THE OCTOBER 7, 2023, HAMAS ATTACKS IN ISRAEL YOU WERE ASKED TO SERVE AS THE COCHAIR.

YOU'RE SITTING THERE AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY NOW -- OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM TASK FORCE THERE.

WHAT IN YOUR RESEARCH AND IN YOUR BOOK HELPED INFORM YOU FOR THAT WORK ON ANTI- SEMITISM?

>> WELL, I GUESS, FIRST OF ALL WORKING ON THE BOOK VERY MUCH LED ME TO ACCEPT THIS ASSIGNMENT AND INFORM THE WAY THAT I UNDERSTOOD THE ASSIGNMENT, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF ASKING WHAT PREVIOUS MEMBERS IN THE FAMILY WOULD HAVE DONE IN THIS SITUATION BUT ALSO UNDERSTANDING HOW RICH AND COMPLICATED AND CONTENTIOUS THE HISTORY OF ZIONISM IS IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY ON ALL ASPECTS.

AND THAT HELPED ME SORT OF UNDERSTAND THE CONFLICT WE WERE HAVING ON THE CAMPUS MUCH BETTER.

SO, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT HELPED.

AND THEN AS I WAS REVISING THE BOOK, IT PROBABLY WAS IN MY MIND THAT WATCHING ISSUES PERTAINING TO BEING JEWISH GO FROM A POT THAT SIMMERS TO A POT THAT WAS ON FULL BOIL AND WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

IT MADE IT FEEL AS IF THE --YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ABOUT ASSIMILATION.

THAT THE PROCESS OF BEING A JEWISH AMERICAN ISN'T A SETTLED MATTER AND ISN'T JUST SIMPLE AND ALL THE OLD CONFLICTS AROUND THIS AREN'T PART OF THE PAST, THEY'RE PART OF THE PRESENT, TOO.

AND AT LEAST I HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH THEM A LOT.

AND THERE'S CONVERSATIONS --THERE'S A CONVERSATION AT COLUMBIA.

THERE'S A PRETTY HOT-BLOODED CONVERSATION IN THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY I BELONG TO, KIND OF INTERNAL TO JEWS ABOUT HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO FEEL ABOUT ISRAEL, ABOUT ZIONISM, ABOUT PEOPLE, ABOUT ALL THOSE THINGS.

SO THERE'S JUST A LOT ON THE TABLE RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, THE WORLD SEEMS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY IT SEEMED ON OCTOBER 6, 2023, WHEN ISRAEL WAS SUPPOSEDLY ABOUT TO SIGN AN AGREEMENT WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND IT SIGNED THESE OTHER AGREEMENTS.

THE EGYPT AGREEMENT HAD HELD, AND YOU SORT OF THOUGHT, OKAY, ISRAEL'S ACCEPTED.

NO, IT CLEARLY HAS NOT.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP RECENTLY SUED HARVARD AND RENEWED HIS ATTACK ON HARVARD SAYING THAT IT HAD BEEN SO MUCH ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS.

YOU DEALT WITH IT AT COLUMBIA AS PART OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM TASK FORCE.

COLUMBIA HAS TRIED TO NAVIGATE THAT.

BUT DO YOU THINK WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING HAS SOME MERIT TO IT?

AND IS IT THE RIGHT WAY TO APPROACH IT?

>> WELL, SO FIRST OF ALL IT'S MADE LIFE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR OUR TASK FORCE ONCE PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME BACK INTO OFFICE BECAUSE HE GAVE, YOU KNOW, ANY EFFORT TO COMBAT ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS A BAD NAME.

THE WAY I WOULD PUT IT IS THE WAY A LIBERAL UNIVERSITY LIKE COLUMBIA WORKS IS WE HONOR PEOPLE'S ETHNIC IDENTITIES.

AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT MAKES A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN AN IDENTITY GROUP VERY UNCOMFORTABLE --AND WE DID POLLING THAT SUPPORTED THIS.

THE UNIVERSITY SAYS, YOU KNOW, OKAY, WE'RE HERE TO LISTEN TO YOU AND TRY TO ATTEND TO YOUR CONCERNS IN A WAY THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH OUR VALUES.

SO SOME OF MY RELATIVES WHO LIVED ON PAST MY DAD WEREN'T HAPPY IN MY DOING THIS AND THEY'D SAY IT'S ONLY ANTI-SEMITISM IF YOU GET UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CAMPUS AND SAY I HATE JEWS.

WELL, NOBODY DID THAT.

BUT THEY DID SAY, IN EFFECT, I HATE ISRAEL.

AND MOST AMERICAN JEWS IDENTIFY IN SOME WAY WITH ISRAEL, AND SO IT'S VERY, VERY IMPACTFUL ON JEWISH KIDS, ESPECIALLY MORE OBSERVANT JEWISH KIDS TO HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, REALLY MASSIVE, VERY HARSH CRITIQUE OF ISRAEL AS THE WORST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TAKING PLACE LOUD AND PROUD WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WEARING MASKS IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR CAMPUS.

AND SO I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, AND WE TRIED TO ADDRESS.

YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING PRESIDENT TRUMP CARES ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, HE CLEARLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT IT IF OTHER --IF IT'S A GROUP OF WOMEN SAYING THIS, IF IT'S A GROUP OF AFRICAN AMERICAN OR LATINO STUDENTS SAYING THIS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I'M --I'M SOMEWHAT SKEPTICAL THAT THIS RESIDES DEEP IN HIS HEART AS AN ISSUE.

>> HAS THIS WHOLE PROCESS SINCE OCTOBER 7th MADE IT HARDER TO BE VERY ANTI-ISRAEL WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-JEWISH?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHO'S DOING THE ACCUSING.

I THINK IN THE JEWISH WORLD THAT I'VE COME TO OR RETURNED TO AND THAT I LIVE IN, IT'S -- OUTSIDE OF THAT WORLD I THINK MOST --MANY OF MY FRIENDS HAVE --WHO ARE NOT JEWISH HAVE A VERY, VERY HARSHLY NEGATIVE VIEW OF ISRAEL, AND IT'S BECOME HARSHER IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

THEY DON'T SEE THAT AS ANTI-SEMITIC AT ALL, OR MOST OF THEM DON'T.

BUT MOST OF MY JEWISH FRIENDS THAT I BELONG TO A SYNAGOGUE WITH, IT -- IT SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE --IN UNIVERSITIES WE USE THE TERM UNCONSCIOUS BIAS.

IT SEEMS LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF UNCONSCIOUS BIAS, OR AT LEAST IT MAKES THEM FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE BECAUSE IN THE JEWISH WORLD I LIVE IN NOW, WHICH IS PRETTY OBSERVANT, EVERYBODY HAS FAMILY IN ISRAEL.

EVERYBODY'S KIDS HAVE SPENT SIGNIFICANT TIME IN ISRAEL STUDYING.

THEY THEMSELVES ARE BACK AND FORTH TO ISRAEL ALL THE TIME.

SO TO SAY TO THEM YOU DON'T TRULY UNDERSTAND YOUR JEWISH IDENTITY, WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNCONNECTED TO ISRAEL, IT'S SORT OF LIKE WHAT WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY?

THAT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE YOU'RE DESCRIBING MY LIFE AND MY SOUL AND MY CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> AND THE OTHER BIG LESSON AT THE END OF YOUR BOOK IS THE COMFORT THAT COMES FROM RE-EMBRACING, RETURNING TO YOUR TRIBE.

>> YEAH.

SO I WANT TO SAY THAT, AGAIN, AS WE'VE COVERED A LOT OF TROUBLED AND AGONIZED AND PAINFUL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS, AND IT'S A GOOD NOTE TO END ON.

I LOVE BEING JEWISH.

IT'S A SOURCE OF WONDERFUL ENRICHMENT AND JOY AND MEANING IN MY LIFE.

IT TAKES UP HOURS OF EVERY WEEK, AND IT'S A VERY, VERY POSITIVE THING.

SO WITHOUT ALL THESE FIGHTS WE'RE ALL HAVING ABOUT ISRAEL AND ZIONISM, I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I'M HAVING A SATYR, IT'S A REAL HIGH POINT.

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL THAT THE DEBATES ABOUT OUR PLACES IN THE WORLD IN VARIOUS LOCATIONS VISHIATES THE PRESENCE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T.

>> NICHOLAS LEMANN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

THANK YOU.

>> FINALLY, THE WAIT IS OVER.

CELINE DION ANNOUNCES A REMARKABLE RETURN TO THE STAGE.

>> THIS YEAR I'M GETTING THE BEST GIFT OF MY LIFE.

I'M GETTING THE CHANCE TO SEE YOU TO PERFORM FOR YOU ONCE AGAIN.

>> SHE'S BEEN BATTLING A RARE NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER SINCE 2022 AFFECTING HER VOCAL CORDS, WHICH HAS CAUSED HER TO STEP AWAY FROM CONCERTS.

BUT THE POWER BALLAD ICON WILL PERFORM AGAIN.

IN A BIRTHDAY MESSAGE TO FANS SHE CONFIRMED TEN CONCERTS IN PARIS STARTING IN SEPTEMBER.

THE EIFFEL TOWER WAS EVEN SHINING IN CELEBRATION.

IT IS OFFICIAL, CELINE DION'S VOICE WILL GO ON.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

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