>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", THE CONTROVERSIAL 2021 TOKYO OLYMPICS, THEN THE WHARTON SCHOOL MAKES HISTORY WITH ITS INCOMING MBA CLASS, AND THE RISE OF THE LGBTQ FEMALE POLITICIAN.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE TOKYO OLYMPICS LIGHT UP.

AS LAUREN HUBBARD IS SAID TO MAKE HISTORY AS THE FIRST TRANSGENDER OLYMPIC ATHLETE IN WOMEN'S WEIGHTLIFTING, IT'S NOT ONLY HER PARTICIPATION THAT'S LIGHTING UP AN INTERNET FIRESTORM.

SOME SAY HER BIOLOGICAL MAKEUP GIVES HER AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

ALTHOUGH THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DISAGREES.

WEIGHTLIFTING IS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL ANCIENT OLYMPIC EVENTS, BUT IT COULD BE DROPPED.

DOPING, BRIBERY, VOTE-RIGGING, AND CORRUPTION ARE SAID TO BE COMMON IN THE SPORT.

THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE THREATENS ATHLETES TO CLEAN UP THEIR ACTS OR FACE EXPULSION.

MENTAL HEALTH AND THE DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS PLACED ON FEMALE AND MALE ATHLETES IS ALSO AT ISSUE.

THIS AFTER SIMONE BILES, ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS ATHLETES AT THE GAMES, PULLED OUT OF NOT ONE BUT TWO EVENTS FOR MENTAL HEALTH REASONS.

SOME COMMENTATORS PRAISED HER FOR HAVING THE COURAGE TO SPEAK UP ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH, BUT OTHERS CLAIM THE PRICE WAS THE RESULT OF A DOUBLE STANDARD.

THEY ARGUED MALE ATHLETES WOULD BE EXCORIATED FOR QUITTING IF THEY HAD DONE THE SAME.

BILES WAS BEING EVALUATED DAILY TO SEE IF SHE MIGHT TAKE PART IN INDIVIDUAL APPARATUS CONVICTIONS STILL TO COME AT THE TOKYO GAMES.WITH US TODAY ARE AVIS JONES DEWEEVER; LINDA CHAVEZ, CHAIR OF THE CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY; LARA BROWN, PROFESSOR AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY; AND TIANA LOWE, COMMENTARY WRITER FOR THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER.

SO, DR. DEWEEVER, DOES THE FACT THAT SUNI LEE WON THE ALL-AROUND WITHOUT SIMONE BILES IN THE TEAM SHOW THAT SHE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION OR NOT?

>> Avis Jones DeWeeever: WELL, IT DEFINITELY SHOWS THAT WE HAVE A DEEP TEAM.

I THINK THAT'S THE BEAUTIFUL THING ABOUT THE TALENT THAT WE HAVE AN EXPORT.

IT IS DEEP, IT IS WIDE, AND I BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, SIMONE MADE THE BEST DECISION FOR HER SAFETY AND WE CAN TELL THAT IT DID NOT HAVE ANY NEGATIVE EFFECTS IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL, BECAUSE AMERICANS STILL BROUGHT HOME THE GOLD.

>> Avis Jones DeWeeever: AND GET THE CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATORS WERE GOING WILD ON TWITTER AND ELSEWHERE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS BEING A WEAKLING AND SAYING ALL KINDS OF NASTY THINGS ABOUT HER.

AND OF COURSE, A LOT OF ATHLETES ARE STANDING UP FOR HER AND SAYING YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, YOU SHOULD SHUT YOUR TRAP.

BUT ANYWAY, LINDA, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Linda Chavez: FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THAT SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE IT THAT INDIVIDUAL DECISION.

IN CLEARLY, IF HER MENTAL HEALTH WAS BEING AFFECTED BY THE PRESSURE OF THE OLYMPICS, IT WAS RIGHT FOR HER TO STEP ASIDE.

AND AS AVIS POINTED OUT, IT DID NOT HURT THE AMERICAN CHANCE OF WINNING THE GOLD MEDAL BECAUSE WE GOT A GOLD MEDALIST ANYWAY.

I DO THINK, HOWEVER, THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF DANGER IN SORT OF ELEVATING PEOPLE WHO MAKE THESE DECISIONS INTO HEROIC FIGURES AS A RESULT.

I THINK THEY SHOULD BE RESPECTED.

I THINK WE SHOULD HONOR THEIR DECISION.

BUT SOMEHOW TO ELEVATE THE DECISION IS SOMEHOW A CORRUPT MEASURE I THINK REALLY RISKS SENDING THE WRONG MESSAGE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WORRY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ANYBODY THINK SHE WAS HAILED AS A HERO FOR MAKING THIS DECISION?

I DID NOT SEE THAT.

>> Tiana Lowe: LET ME POINT OUT, YES, THAT THERE IS SOME UNFURL IONIZATION.

LET ME CORRECT THE RECORD HERE ABOUT CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATORS.

CHARLIE KIRK AND SIX TROLLS ON TWITTER ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT EVERYONE ON THE RIGHT SAID.

I KNOW THAT I CAME OUT AND DEFENDED SIMONE BILES FROM NATIONAL REVIEW PHILIP KLEIN, DAN McLAUGHLIN, ALEXANDRA SANCTUS DID.

IT WAS BY NO MEANS CONSENSUS THAT SIMONE BILES WAS IN THE WRONG HERE.

THIS WAS NOT EVEN A MENTAL HEALTH DECISION.

THAT'S A SORT OF SIMPLISTIC WAY OF PUTTING IT.

IT'S THAT IF YOU GET LOST IN IN THE AIR, IF YOUR INNER EAR STOPS BEING ALIGNED WITH THE GROUND, SHE COULD HAVE WOUND UP DEAD.

LIKE, THE FACT THAT SHE WAS ABLE TO LAND THAT BOLD WELL-BEING GETTING LOST IN THE AIR INSTEAD OF SEVERING HER SPINE IS AMAZING AS TO WHY SIMONE IS THE GOAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THE TWISTIES IS WHAT IT IS CALLED.

>> Tiana Lowe: AERIAL DISTORTION IS SOMETHING PILOTS GET, DIVERS GET IT, BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS GYMNASTICS IS THE ONLY ONE YOU ARE 10 FEET IN THE AIR AND COULD WIND UP WITH 15 TIMES OF THE FORCE OF YOUR BODY WEIGHT SEVERING YOUR SPINE, RIGHT?

AND SO, WITH REGARDS TO SIMONE, THE ONLY HEROIC THING SHE DID IS MAKE IT TWO 2024 ARE MAKE IT 2021.

SHE IS 24 YEARS OLD.

THAT IS GERIATRIC AND THE GYMNASTICS.

IN THE ONLY REASON WHY SHE DID THIS IN THE OLYMPICS, SHE COULD HAVE RETIRED AFTER 2016 AND GONE DOWN AS THE GREATEST OF GYMNAST THAT OF ALL TIME AT THIS POINT.

O UP UNTIL THIS POINT, THE REASON WHY SHE HAD TO GO TO 2024 WAS TO FORCE CHANGE IN USA OLYMPICS AND THE US OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, SHE USE HER 2020.

-- SHE DOES HER 2020 OLYMPIC BID, AS LEVERAGED BY BASICALLY SAYING, I WON'T GO TO TOKYO UNLESS IF YOU GET RID OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO PROTECTED PEOPLE LIKE LARRY NASSER AND WHAT SUNNI LEA DID, AND WHAT REALLY BROUGHT TEARS TO MY EYES WHEN SHE WON IT.

SHE PROVED THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THE ABUSIVE KAROLY SOVIET STYLE TRAINING TO BECOME THE BEST.

BEFORE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT MENTAL HEALTH, EVERYTHING IS AS IMPORTANT AS PHYSICAL HEALTH.

AND WHILE I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICIZING HER FOR THIS DECISION, I ALSO THINK THAT WE HAVE LOST PERSPECTIVE ABOUT WHAT THE CONTEXT OF ALL OF THIS IS.

AND SO, IT'S NOT JUST, AS TIANA, BROUGHT UP, IT'S NOT ABOUT JUST THE PAST OF THE LARRY NASSAR, IT'S ABOUT THE MEDIA OF THE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE ARE IN.

THERE WAS NO WAY TO SHUT OFF THE KIND OF SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU KNOW, LINE IS A SURE, THIS CONSTANT PRESSURE OF SHE IS THE G.O.A.T..

YES, SHE IS, BUT SHE'S ALSO DOING AND PERFORMING AT LEVELS THAT NO OTHER ATHLETE HAS PERFORMED IN THIS SPORT, AND I JUST THINK IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE ASSUME THAT SHE CAN BE KIND OF SUPERHUMAN AND NOT HAVE, YOU KNOW, DOUBTS OR FEARS OR AT SOME POINT IN TIME UNCERTAINTY ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE IS NOW 24 YEARS OF AGE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IS AT THIS PARTICULAR 2021 OLYMPICS, WITH NOBODY IN THE AUDIENCE BUT A COUPLE OF PEOPLE ON YOUR TEAM, WITH YOUR PARENTS, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR SUPPORT GROUP NOT THERE TO HUG YOU WHEN YOU COME OFF THE FLOOR?

WHAT IS IT?

HOW DO THESE FACTORS CONTRIBUTE TO ANYONE, NOT JUST SIMONE BILES, BUT ANYONE'S PROBLEM WITH GETTING THROUGH THE MOST, THE MOST ADVERSE OF CIRCUMSTANCES?

>> Lara Brown: BONNIE, THIS IS WHERE I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE LARGER AND BROADER CONTEXT, RIGHT?

MICHAEL PHELPS WAS NOT A PART OF THIS OLYMPICS.

NBC HAD TO POSTPONE THIS OLYMPICS, YOU KNOW, WITH THE REST OF THE IOC COMMITTEE IN TOKYO FOR A YEAR.

THERE WAS TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC PRESSURE ON ALL PARTIES INVOLVED WITH THIS TO TRY TO GAIN AUDIENCE AND HAVE ANY SORT OF NONVERBAL KIND OF COMMERCIAL SALES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS.

AND ALL OF THAT MEANT THAT THE FEW REAL BIG NAME STARS WERE GOING TO HAVE MORE PRESSURE THAN EVER.

AND I THINK, LOOK, WE SAW THIS, YOU KNOW, WITH THE TENNIS PLAYER, NAOMI OSAKA, NOT THAT LONG AGO ALSO SAYING I CANNOT DO THIS.

THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

I AM BEING ASKED TO BE NOT JUST A PLAYER AND AN ATHLETE, BUT IN FACT THE CELEBRITY, AND MY JOB IS NOT TO BE CELEBRITY.

>> Avis Jones DeWeeever: GYMNASTICS IS A DEATH-DEFYING ACT.

IT IS A DEATH-DEFYING ACT.

IF YOU HAVE TO BE FOCUSED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE IT WORK, RIGHT?

IN ADDITION TO THAT, LET'S NOT GLOSS OVER THE FACT THAT NOT ONLY HAS SIMONE BILES BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP NEW TECHNIQUES IN GYMNASTICS THAT HAVE SEVERAL MOVES NOW NAMED AFTER HER, IN ESSENCE HER SCORING ON THOSE NEW DEATH-DEFYING ACTS THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN DO HAS BEEN DEPRESSED.

IN ESSENCE, GYMNASTICS SPORTS HAS DECIDED THAT THEY WILL SORT OF WEIGH HER SCORES DOWN BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE CAN DO IT.

HER ADVANCE -- INNOCENCE, SHE'S BEING PENALIZED FOR ADVANCING THE TECHNIQUES IN THE SPORTS.

YOU KNOW, I WOULD NOT WANT TO RISK MY LIFE FOR ANY REASON THAT I DON'T HAVE TO OF IDYLLIC LIFE IS IN DANGER, BUT I ESPECIALLY WOULD NOT WANT TO DO IT KNOWING THAT THIS IS A SPORT THAT'S NOT EVEN JUDGING ME FAIRLY AND SCORING ME FAIRLY WHEN I AM OUT HERE ADVANCING THE SPORT, DOING THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE CANNOT DO AND I'M GOING TO BE PENALIZED.

AT THE SAME TIME?

I WOULD SAY SIMONE MADE THE EXACT RIGHT DECISION.

I'M GLAD WE HAVE A NEW WINNER THERE BECAUSE THAT CREATED SPACE, RIGHT?

BUT SHE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: FROM OLYMPIC SPORTS TO MBAS: THE WORK AND SCHOOL IS MAKING HISTORY THIS FALL AS IT ADMITS MORE WOMEN THAN MEN INTO ITS INCOMING NBA CLASS.

IT'S NOT ONLY A MILESTONE FOR THE 140-YEAR-OLD SCHOOL, IT'S ALSO THE FIRST OF THE SEVEN ELITE BUSINESS SCHOOLS KNOWN AS THE M7 TO MAKE THAT MOVE.

WOMEN CONSTITUTE 52 PERCENT OF WHARTON'S INCOMING CLASS.

WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION IN MBA PROGRAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN RISING.

IN 2020, 39 PERCENT OF CANDIDATES WERE FEMALE.

MEANWHILE, CELIE Sallie Krawcheck, ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL WOMEN ON WALL STREET, TOLD NPR'S MARKETPLACE THIS WEEK, MORE EMPHASIS SHOULD BE PLACED ON THE GENDER WEALTH GAP, NOT THE GENDER PAY GAP.

THE GENDER WEALTH GAP BEFORE THE PANDEMIC WAS $0.32 FOR A WHITE WOMAN VERSUS ONE DOLLAR FOR A WHITE MAN.

IT DROPS TO ONE PENNY FOR A BLACK WOMAN.

KRAWCHECK ALSO SAYS 90 PERCENT ON ARTICLES ON MONEY FOR WOMEN ARE ABOUT SAVING AND ARE NEGATIVE ON TAKING RISKS.

WHILE 72 PERCENT OF ARTICLES FOR MEN OR ABOUT INVESTING IN GROWING.

LET'S START WITH YOU, LARA: IS THIS AN IMPORTANT MOVE BY WHARTON?

>> Lara Brown: I THINK IT IS AN EXCITING MOVE AND I THINK IT IS MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING MORE BROADLY IN HIGHER EDUCATION.

I AM PROUD TO SAY THAT GW'S BUSINESS SCHOOL ADMITTED THAT 58 PERCENT WOMEN-HEAVY CLASS LAST YEAR.

AND I DO THINK THAT WHEN WE LOOK ACROSS HIGHER EDUCATION, WE SEE WOMEN COMPLETING DEGREES AT THE BACHELOR'S LEVEL AND AT THE MASTERS AND DOCTORAL LEVELS MORE FREQUENTLY.

WOMEN ARE PREPARED AND THEY ARE INTERESTED IN ADDITIONAL CREDENTIALS TO HELP THEM ADVANCE AND SUCCEED.

>> Linda Chavez: OBVIOUSLY, IT IS GREAT THAT WHARTON IS ADMITTING MORE WOMEN AND THAT MORE WOMEN ARE EARNING MBAS, BUT REALLY, I THINK IS LARA SUGGESTED, THIS IS REALLY JUST A NATURAL PROGRESSION OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN HIGHER EDUCATION.

WOMEN ARE BASICALLY TAKING OVER HIGHER EDUCATION.

THEY GET MORE DEGREES OF ALL SORTS THAN MEN DO.

AND I CAN REMEMBER, BONNIE, IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THIS SHOW, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD TELL STATISTICS AND WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THE GENDER GAP AND IN LAWYERS AND DOCTORS AND OF THE THINGS.

WELL, THAT GENDER GAP HAS NOW BEEN CLOSED AND IN SOME WAYS WOMEN ARE SURPASSING.

WHAT I DO WORRY ABOUT, BONNIE, IS CREDENTIALS HIM, GETTING A DEGREE AND HAVING OF CREDENTIAL IS NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING AS SUCCEEDING IN THE PROFESSION AND THERE STILL IS A LONG WAY FOR WOMEN TO GO IN THE CORPORATE WORLD.

THEY ARE MAKING PROGRESS, BUT IT'S NOWHERE NEAR THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN ON CORPORATE BOARDS, CERTAINLY NOT AMONGST CEOS.

AND ALL THAT IS GOING TO GO WHILE TO JUST CLOSE THE GENDER GAP.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO YOU THINK YOUR GENERATION WILL CLOSE THE GENDER GAP AND WILL CLOSE THE WEALTH GAP, WHICH IS AS ASTONISHING.

AT LEAST ACCORDING TO KRAWCHECK'S NUMBERS, ONE PENNY FOR AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN VERSUS $0.32 ON THE DOLLAR FOR WHITE WOMEN, AND MEN OF COURSE WITH THE DOLLAR.

>> Tiana Lowe: I DON'T WANT TO RAIN ON EVERYONE'S PARADE HERE, BUT THIS IS A A BIT OF NAVELGAZING.

YEAH, I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT WHITE-COLLAR WOMEN ARE FINALLY IN PARITY WITH MEN AND, YOU KNOW, THE SIX WEEKS AND WHATNOT IN FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES.

BUT LET'S FOCUS ON -- >> Bonnie Erbe: THEY ARE NOT YET.THEY ARE FAR AWAY FROM IT.

>> Tiana Lowe: I CARE SO MUCH MORE ABOUT THAT THAN THE MEDIA WOMAN, THE AVERAGE WORKING-CLASS WOMAN.

AND THE FACT FACT IS, FOR THEM, FOR THE PANDEMIC, LOCKDOWNS UNDER SCHOOL CLOSURE CONSTITUTED CLASS WARFARE.

I MEAN, WE SAW WORKING WOMEN DROPPING OUT OF THE LABOR FORCE IN RECORD NUMBERS THANKS TO THE SCHOOL CLOSURES AND THANKS TO THE LOCKDOWNS.

WE SAW THEM TAKING ON THE BRUNT OF THE DOMESTIC WORK, THE BRUNT OF FACILITATING THE SHAM THAT IS DISTANCE LEARNING AND MY MAIN CONCERN THROUGHOUT 2020, HALF, HALF OF ALL MOTHERS OF SCHOOL AGED CHILDREN WERE NOT EMPLOYED.

THAT IS A DEVASTATING NUMBER TO SEE IN A FIRST WORLD COUNTRY IN IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LET'S GET ONTO THE WEALTH GAP WHICH I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, DR. DEWEEVER, AVIS, BECAUSE THE ONE PENNY VERSUS $0.32 VERSUS THE DOLLAR, IS THAT BECAUSE AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE BEEN LONGTIME TARGETS OF DISCRIMINATION, REDLINED INTO CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS, AND MOST PEOPLE'S WEALTH IS AS A RESULT OF BUYING THEIR HOME?

>> Avis Jones DeWeeever: YES.

IS INTEGRATION ALL WEALTH.

IT'S A MIX OF THAT IN PUBLIC POLICY.

QUITE FRANKLY, I'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK ON THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP AND THE GENDER WEALTH GAP IN THOSE ARE THE ROOTS OF IT.

BUT YOU SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN EDUCATION: I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE REASON WHY WOMEN ARE GETTING MORE EDUCATION IS BECAUSE THEY NEED TO GET MORE EDUCATION TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORE MONEY IN THE WORKFORCE.

A BLACK WOMAN, FOR EXAMPLE, NEEDS TO EARN A PHD IN ORDER TO GET DISH DISH MEETING EARNINGS THAT ARE ON PAR WITH A WHITE MALE WITH A GED.

AND SO YOU KNOW, THOUGH THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A LEGALISM, WHAT'S GOING ON IS THAT WOMEN ARE DOING WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO MAKE A DECENT WAGE.

NOW, I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO DO MORE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL WOMEN MAKE DECENT WAGES, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE MULTIPLE DEGREES IN ORDER TO HAVE A DECENT WAGE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT I REALLY THINK THAT THAT IS THE ROOT AT WHAT WE ARE SAYING, NOT ONLY IN MBA PROGRAMS, BUT IN HIGHER EDUCATION AT LARGE WITH REGARDS TO THE INCREASING NUMBER OF WOMEN.

WOMEN WITHOUT A COLLEGE DEGREE FAIR ESPECIALLY POORLY IN THE LABOR MARKET IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO MAKE WAGES THAT REALLY MAKE MORE PAY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LARA, YOUR THOUGHTS, PARTICULARLY ON WHY THIS, YOU KNOW, THE DATA THAT YOU ARE SO PROUD OF ABOUT YOUR UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU WORK, AND WOMEN MOVING AHEAD ACADEMICALLY AND WHY IT IS NOT TRANSLATING INTO WOMEN MOVING AHEAD, ESPECIALLY WOMEN OF COLOR?

>> Lara Brown: WELL, I JUST THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AVIS SAID IT PERFECTLY: I MEAN, THERE IS A REALITY THAT WOMEN ARE LOOKING AT THESE CREDENTIALS AS A WAY TO SORT OF ACCESS HIGHER-PAYING JOBS, BECAUSE THE NOTION THAT YOU CAN BE A WOMAN AND EXPERIENCED AND WELL-QUALIFIED IS STILL MET WITH SOME SKEPTICISM IN VARIOUS CORNERS OF THE MARKETPLACE.

AND THIS IS WHY WOMEN SAY I WANT TO HAVE A CREDENTIAL TO HELP LEGITIMATE MY ABILITIES AND MY KNOWLEDGE.

AND SO, I DO THINK THAT WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES, AND I KNOW THAT WHEN I WAS YOUNG, GETTING A PHD WAS A PART OF THAT CALCULATION.

I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, THIS IS THE WAY TO MAKE MEN LISTEN TO ME.

AND NOW I WILL SAY THAT I DON'T THINK YOU NEEDED AS MUCH AS YOU ONCE DID.

BUT IT'S STILL A DEFINING FACTOR FOR MANY WOMEN IN THE PROFESSIONS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: FROM MONEY AND GENDER TO POLITICS AND GENDER: THERE ARE NEARLY 1000 OPENLY LGBTQ U.S. ELECTED OFFICIALS, AN INCREASE OF 102 PERCENT SINCE 2017.

THAT ACCORDING TO THE LGBTQ VICTORY INSTITUTE, WHICH TRACKS AND SUPPORTS LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, TRANSGENDER, AND QUEER ELECTED OFFICIALS AND POLITICAL HOPEFULS.

THE INSTITUTE'S LATEST SURVEY ALSO FOUND LESBIAN AND FEMALE BISEXUAL CANDIDATES ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN GAY MEN AT THE BALLOT BOX.

23 STATES HAVE AT LEAST ONE TRANSGENDER ELECTED OFFICIAL WITH ALL THE RECENT WINDS COMING FROM TRANSGENDER WOMEN, ALTHOUGH LGBTQ REPRESENTATION IN POLITICS HAS RISEN, IT'S NOT EVENLY DIVIDED TO THE PARTIES.

THE REPORT ALSO SAYS OUT OF 986 LG LGBTQ A ELECTED OFFICIALS, 26 ARE REPUBLICAN.

LINDA CHAVEZ, I THINK THAT THE DIVIDE WOULD BE FOR OBVIOUS REASONS TO MOST PEOPLE, BUT YOU ARE AN INSIDER IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WHY IS IT THAT SO FEW LGBTQ- QIA, IF YOU WANT TO GO THAT FAR IN THE ALPHABET, ARE REPUBLICANS?

>> Linda Chavez: FIRST OF ALL, LIKE WE CAN AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE NOT SELF IDENTIFIED AS GAY, THAT THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER GAY PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

I THINK -- >> Bonnie Erbe: SO YOU THINK OF REPUBLICANS ARE THERE, THEY ARE LGBTQ BUT ARE IN THE CLOSET?

>> Linda Chavez: YOU KNOW, GAY PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY -- BY THE WAY, I'M NO LONGER A REPUBLICAN.

I'M AN UNAFFILIATED NOW, BUT, YES, OF COURSE.

OF COURSE THERE ARE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU RELY FOR YOUR BASIS SUPPORT ON THE EVANGELICAL COMMUNITY, ETC., IT'S GOING TO BE HARDER TO BE A GAY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN THAN IT IS TO BE A GAY MODERATE OR EVEN PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT.

SO, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE DIFFERENCE.

BUT, LOOK, I THINK THIS CHANGE THAT WE ARE SEEING REFLECTS THE HUGE SEACHANGE THAT'S TAKEN PLACE ON ISSUES OF THE GAY COMMUNITY IN AMERICA.

I MEAN, WITH THE ADVANCE OF GAY MARRIAGE, WHICH CHOSE NOT JUST TO THE SUPREME COURT, BECAUSE GAY MARRIAGE WAS ADVANCING IN STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND PEOPLE BEING MORE OPEN ABOUT TALKING ABOUT THEIR SEXUALITY, I THINK WE'RE DISCOVERING THERE ARE A LOT MORE GAY PEOPLE THAN WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO.

SO THE FACT THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING ELECTED, I DID FIND IT VERY INTERESTING THAT LESBIANS SEEM TO HAVE A LEG UP, AND AMONG TRANSGENDER, IT IS TRANSGENDER IS FORMAL EMAIL AND NOW SELF IDENTIFIED AS FEMALE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING ELECTED, AND IT DOES NOT QUITE GO THE OTHER WAY.

AND SOME OF THAT, AGAIN -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> Linda Chavez: I THINK, AGAIN, IT REFLECTS SOME BIASES.

I THINK YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO SEE MEN WILLING TO SUPPORT A WOMAN WHO COMES OUT AS GAY AND THEY ARE WILLING TO SUPPORT A MAN.

I THINK, I STILL THINK THERE IS CULTURALLY SOME HOMOPHOBIA AMONG MALES AND THEY ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO EMBRACE MEN.

I MEAN, I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, PETE BUTTIGIEG, IF HE HAD NOT HAD HIS MILITARY BACKGROUND, YOU KNOW, IS I THINK VERY WINNING PERSONALITY, WOULD HAVE ENCOUNTERED MORE PROBLEMS AS A GAY MAN, AND ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, HE IS NOW IN THE CABINET, BUT ULTIMATELY HE DID NOT FARE AS WELL AS I THOUGHT CREDENTIALS AND HIS PERSONA WOULD HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO ADVANCE, EVEN IN THE PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> Avis Jones DeWeeever: I HAVE TO AGREE WITH LINDA.

I REALLY THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE BORN AS BOYS, TODAY THEY PRESENT IS WOMEN AND THEY ARE WOMEN.

AND I REALLY DO THINK THAT SOME MEN WHO ARE HOMOPHOBIC HAVE A HARD TIME DEALING WITH EITHER A GAY MAN OR A MAN PRESENTING WHO IS TRANSGENDERED.

I THINK THEY JUST -- I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A BIT OF SECURITY THERE IN THEIR OWN MASCULINITY, THAT HURTS -- THAT HINDERS THEIR ABILITY TO FULLY SUPPORT GAY MEN AND NOT IN SOME WAY FEEL THREATENED BY THEIR PRESENCE.

REALLY THINK THAT'S AT THE ROOT OF IT.

>> Tiana Lowe: I MEAN, WE ARE DEALING WITH SUCH A TINY SAMPLE SET OF ALREADY A VERY SMALL PORTION OF THE POPULATION.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THIS IS JUST SELECTION BIAS, MAYBE TRANSGENDER WOMEN JUST HAPPENED TO BE MORE POLITICALLY INVOLVED THAN TRANSGENDER MEN.

I AM JUST GOING TO BRING UP ONE THING INTO SOMETHING A VERY REALLY DO AND, DONALD TRUMP WITH ONE THING: DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, THE THRICE MARRIED MANHATTANITE DID GIVE THE RIGHT MASSIVE PERMISSION TO EMBRACE LGPDQ CONSERVATIVES.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT WAS UNTHINKABLE THAT A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE WOULD ENTER THE WHITE HOUSE, BEING IN SUPPORT OF GAY MARRIAGE AND DONALD TRUMP WAS.

IF YOU COMPARE HIM WITH MITT ROMNEY OR JOHN McCAIN, THESE ARE NOT THINGS WE WOULD'VE EVER ANTICIPATED, WHICH I THINK IS AN AMAZINGLY GOOD THING.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LARA, CLOSE IT OUT FOR ME.

>> Lara Brown: WELL, SO I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS ANALYSIS IS ALSO SORT OF MISSING SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL POLITICAL SCIENCE CONTROLS THAT WE USUALLY LOOK AT.

SO I THINK THERE ARE PROBLEMS, RIGHT, TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PARTY DIFFERENCES ARE.

YOU KNOW, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS MADE UP OF MORE WOMEN THAN IT IS MEN.

SO IT MAY ALSO JUST BE THAT WHEN A WOMAN CANDIDATE, IRRESPECTIVE OF HER IDENTITY, RUNS, SHE MAY BE GETTING IN SOME WAYS MORE SUPPORT FROM THE WOMEN WITHIN HER COMMUNITY.

IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT THERE ARE THESE CONFOUNDING STEREOTYPICAL ISSUES.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT IS THAT POLITICS IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN KIND OF A MAN'S GAME, AND IT'S ONLY RECENTLY THAT WOMEN HAVE KIND OF MOVED IN.

IN THE LAST 30 YEARS, REALLY HAVE UPSET THE APPLE CART.

AND WE ARE NOW IN A PLACE WHERE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN STILL ARE NOT RUNNING, WHETHER THEY ARE GAY OR STRAIGHT, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

THEY ARE NOT RUNNING IN THE SAME NUMBERS AS MEN.

AND SO, THEY MAY ALSO BE PICKING THEIR SEATS WERE PICKING THEIR SHOTS MORE CAREFULLY AS THEY GO TO SEE COLLECTION.

SO I WOULD JUST SAY THAT AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST WHO STUDIES PARTIES AND ELECTIONS, WENT TO SEE MORE DATA AND MORE ANALYSIS BEFORE I MAKE TOO MANY JUDGMENTS ABOUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT, ALTHOUGH I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ONE THING: WE ALL AGREE THIS IS PROGRESS.

THIS IS PROGRESS THAT NOBODY WOULD HAVE IMAGINED, EVEN A DECADE AGO.

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