>> PRESIDENT TRUMP STAYING AND RUNNING VENEZUELA FOR MANY YEARS, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS HIS CRITICS ARE FALLING INTO AN OBVIOUS TRAP WITH THEIR RESPONSE TO MADURO'S CAPTURE AND THE SUBSEQUENT FALLOUT.

IN A NEW ESSAY, THE ATLANTIC'S DAVID WARNS THAT OPPONENTS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE GETTING BOGGED DOWN IN THE LEGALITIES OF THE MILITARY OPERATION, AND HE IS JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY TRANS-CRITICS ARE GETTING IT ALL WRONG AND WHY THEIR MESSAGE KEEPS FAILING TO BREAK THROUGH.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE , DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE U. S. INCURSION STRIKE INTO VENEZUELA, SEE THE THING MADURO AND HIS WIFE, BRINGING HIM BACK TO THE U. S. FOR INVOLVEMENT IN DRUG TRAFFICKING.

BEFORE WE GET TO A SPECIFIC PIECE I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU OVERALL, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THAT MISSION, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> PEOPLE USE THE PHRASE REGIME CHANGE, BUT WHAT WE ACTUALLY SEE HERE IS DICTATOR CHANGE.

THE REGIME REMAINS INTACT.

NICOLAS MADURO IS NOT A CHARISMATIC DICTATOR OF THE FIDEL CASTRO TYPE, HE IS AN INHERITOR OF THE REPRESSIVE MILITARY AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEM THAT WAS BUILT BY HIS PREDECESSOR, HUGO CHAVEZ, WHO TOOK POWER IN THE 1990s.

SO, THIS REGIME HAS BEEN THERE FOR 30 YEARS.

MADURO WAS THE SECOND IN LINE, HE INHERITED AFTER CHAVEZ DIED OF CANCER, AN ASSISTANT PRECEDED HIM AND CAN OUTLAST HIM.

SO, BY REMOVING HIM FROM THE SYSTEM, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY CHANGE VERY MUCH, UNLESS YOU CHANGE OTHER THINGS ABOUT THE SYSTEM, TOO.

TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEEMS QUITE DETERMINED TO LEAVE THE LESS --REST OF THAT SYSTEM INTACT, BECAUSE I THINK THEY BELIEVE --IT SEEMS TO ME THE THREAT OF RATIONALITY IS THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SYSTEM ARE MORE AMENABLE TO PRESSURE AND MAYBE EVEN MORE CORRUPT THAN NICOLAS MADURO AS THEY CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.

WHILE REFUSING TO DO ANYTHING TO BRING THE LEGITIMATE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF VENEZUELA BACK TO POWER.

VENEZUELA HAD AN ELECTION YEAR AGO, IT WAS INTENDED TO BE A FAKE, BUT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE WAS SO STRONG THAT IT OVERWHELMS THE FAKE, AND WE NOW HAVE A LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES.

>> SO, DUE BY THE ADMINISTRATION'S RATIONALE FOR THIS.

THEY ARE SAYING IT ISN'T A WAR, SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO NOTIFY CONGRESS OR SEEK CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, THEY'RE SAYING IT IS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION TO INTERRUPT A DRUG TRAFFICKING OPERATION.

DO YOU BUY IT?

X WELL, WHICH ONE DO I BUY?

I THINK THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE EXPLANATIONS OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND THEY CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER, SO I CAN'T LEAVE THEM ALL.

AND WHEN THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT ONES, I AM PROBABLY INCLINED TO BELIEVE NONE OF THEM.

ONE RATIONALE IS YES, THIS IS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION TO SEE IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN INDICTED BY THE UNITED STATES WAR.

ANOTHER IS NO, NO, NO, THIS IS AN ANTIDRUG OPERATION INTENDED TO STOP THE FLOW OF DRUGS FROM VENEZUELA TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

ANOTHER IS THIS IS INTENDED TO SEE IS VENEZUELA'S OIL RESOURCES AND ANNEX THEM TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> OR TO RECOVER OIL RESOURCES THAT WERE IMPROPERLY TAKEN 20 YEARS AGO.

>> OR THAT, THAT IS ANOTHER, MAYBE THAT IS NOW FOUR.

SO, DIFFERENT PEOPLE -- THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORTH AN EXPEDITION, THE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORTH AN EXPLANATION, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE OR SECRETARY OF WAR AS HE LIKES TO STYLE HIMSELF, HAS PUT FORWARD AN EXPLANATION, BUT THEY'RE ALL CONTRADICTORY, TO WHICH ONE SHOULD I BELIEVE?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS WHY PEOPLE OBJECT --PEOPLE ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ARE OBJECTING TO WHAT JUST OCCURRED HERE.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE SAYING IN YOUR PIECE, WHICH CAUGHT MY ATTENTION, YOU'RE SAYING THAT TRUMP'S CRITICS ARE FALLING INTO AN OBVIOUS TRAP, WHAT IS THE TRAP ?

>> WHAT TRUMP WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE IS THIS IS A PATRIOTIC OPERATION DONE BY THE SKILLED ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES IN AMERICAN NATIONAL INTEREST, AND WAS AEROBICALLY AND THOUGHTFULLY EXECUTED.

AND IT'S JUST A LOT OF LEGALISTIC GIBBERISH THAT IS STANDING IN THE WAY OF APPRECIATING THE GREAT PATRIOTIC ACHIEVEMENT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'M TRYING TO SAY IS WHATEVER THIS WAS, THIS WAS NOT DONE FOR THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

I GUESS, AND THIS IS ONLY A GUESS, IS THIS OIL TALK REVEALS SOMETHING REAL.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, SEIZING VENEZUELA'S OIL MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> WELL, STOP THERE FOR A SECOND, WHY NOT?

>> SO, $58 A BARREL.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS THE LARGEST PRODUCER OF OIL IN THE WORLD.

AT $58 A BARREL, AMERICAN PRODUCERS, MANY OF THEM HAVE TROUBLE BREAKING EVEN.

ADD CANADA, WHICH USED TO BE A FRIEND OF THE UNITED STATES, AND NORTH AMERICA PRODUCES 28% OF ALL THE OIL PRODUCED IN THE WORLD.

THE IDEA THAT YOU NEED ANOTHER MILLION BARRELS A DAY IS CRAZY, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING, HOW MUCH WILL IT COST TO BRING VENEZUELA'S OIL TO MARKET ?

THE VENEZUELA OIL RESERVES ARE LOCATED IN JUNGLE TERRAIN IN THE FAR EAST OF THE COUNTRY.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH ROADS.

IT IS HEAVY OIL, WHICH HAS TO BE BROUGHT --IT DOESN'T BUBBLE SPONTANEOUSLY TO THE SERVICE, YOU HAVE TO INJECT STEAM INTO THE GROUND TO BRING THE OIL TO THE TOP.

STEAM TAKES ELECTRICITY.

GUESS WHAT THERE AREN'T A LOT OF IN THE JUNGLES OF VENEZUELA, HYDROELECTRIC WATER PLANTS OR GRADES OR PUMPING STATIONS.

THERE AREN'T ADEQUATE SECURITY, SO IF THERE ARE INSURGENCIES, THERE ARE GORILLAS THERE, AND THE WHOLE THING IS JUST BONKERS.

FOR THE TINY FRACTION OF THE COST IT WOULD TAKE TO BRING ANY VENEZUELAN OIL TO MARKET, YOU CAN BRING A LOT MORE U. S. OR CANADIAN OIL TO MARKET.

AND THE PROBLEM IS ACTUALLY, WE'VE GOT ENOUGH, WE DON'T NEED MORE.

>> YOU'VE MANAGED TO ARTICULATE THIS IN A VERY FEW MINUTES.

YOU SAY THAT CRITICS ARE GETTING IT WRONG, WHERE ARE THEY GETTING IT WRONG?

>> THEY ARE GETTING BOGGED DOWN IN LEGALISMS.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY THIS IS ABOUT HOW MADURO WAS ARRESTED OR ANYTHING IN DEFENSE OF THIS TERRIBLE DICTATOR, YOU ARE ALLOWING TRUMP TO STAGE A FALSE ARGUMENT AS IF IT WERE THE TRUE ONE.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE IS NOT SOMETHING DONE FOR THAT NATIONAL INTEREST.

I WILL LEARN MORE ABOUT IT, THERE IS SOME SHADY ELEMENT TO ALL OF THIS, AND THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU NEED TO FOCUS.

THE PROBLEM IS WE ARE ALL KIND OF CONSERVATIVE IN A SMALL SENSE.

WE ALL WANT TO REMEMBER ARGUMENTS WE USED TO HAVE AND TO THINK ABOUT A NORMAL AMERICAN PRESIDENCY WHO DOES THINGS A NORMAL, AMERICAN WAY.

IT IS JUST HARD FOR PEOPLE IN CONGRESS IN BIG INSTITUTIONS, HARD FOR PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE IS PROBABLY A CORRUPT MOTIVE HERE.

AND EVEN IF IT IS NOT IMMEDIATELY OBVIOUS WHAT THAT CORRUPT MOTIVE IS, JUST WAIT 72 HOURS AND IT WILL BECOME OBVIOUS.

BUT DON'T START WITH THE PREMISE THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HERE IS A ROCK OR PANAMA REPLAYED.

THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT, THIS IS ABOUT SOMEBODY HAVING A GET RICH QUICK SCHEME AND WE JUST NEED TO TAKE A LITTLE WHILE TO DISCOVER WHO THAT SOMEBODY IS SPREAD >> IT'S INTERESTING, WHO DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE ARTICULATING THAT ARGUMENT?

SHOULD THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, SHOULD IT BE PUBLIC INTELLECTUALS LIKE YOURSELF?

WHO SHOULD BE SAYING THAT?

>> I THINK THERE ARE THINGS MEMBERS OF CONGRESS CAN THINK WITHOUT HAVING TO SAY.

OBVIOUSLY, A MEMBER OF CONGRESS NEEDS TO WAIT --IF THERE IS A CORRUPT SCHEME HERE, YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT UNTIL YOU HAVE MORE PROOF OF EXACTLY WHAT THE CORRUPT SCHEME IS, BUT THEY NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

AND NOT TO ALLOW OLD HABITS TO DRIVE THEM INTO THE INSTINCTIVE RESPONSE TO --WHATEVER INTERNATIONAL LAW MEANS, THAT'S WHAT WAS VIOLATED HERE, BECAUSE THAT WILL SOUND TO A LOT OF AMERICANS LIKE DENIGRATING A GREAT AMERICAN MILITARY VICTORY, WHEN THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

WE HAVEN'T HAD A GREAT AMERICAN MILITARY VICTORY, WE HAVE HAD A RAID THAT HAS APPREHENDED A GENUINE WRONGDOER, BUT PROBABLY FOR REASONS THAT WON'T BEAR A LOT OF PUBLIC SCRUTINY WHEN THEY ARE REVEALED.

>> AND THERE ARE SORT OF STATEMENTS INITIALLY --MOST REPUBLICANS WERE ON BOARD.

MOST REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED IT, AND DEMOCRATS ARE SKEPTICAL.

BUT THERE ARE SOME REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED THE SAME DOUBTS THAT YOU HAVE, WHO HAD SAID THAT THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO THE MARKET.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO PAST PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR.

I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT JUST PARDONED THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS, WHO WAS CONVICTED OF TRAFFICKING IN ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF DRUGS INTO THE UNITED STATES, CONVICTED IN AN AMERICAN COURT, AND SO, THEY POINTED OUT THE INCONSISTENCIES THAT YOU HAVE POINTED OUT, THEY POINTED OUT THAT MAKES NO SENSE FROM A MARKET PERSPECTIVE.

DO YOU THINK ANY OF THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE PENETRATING?

>> I THINK THERE IS A HABIT HERE.

SO, THERE IS A LONG TRADITION GOING BACK TO GEORGE WASHINGTON'S TIME, ARGUMENTS OF [ INAUDIBLE ].

THEY ARE VERY FAMILIAR ARGUMENTS, LOCATED ARGUMENTS, A LOT OF GOOD FAITH ON BOTH SIDES.

AND I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT --WHO WOULD LIKE TO SUPPORT TRUMP, WHO WANT TO SEE US REVERT TO THE INTERVENTIONIST VERSUS ISOLATIONIST ARGUMENT, AND SAY PRESIDENT TRUMP PRETENDED TO BE AN ISOLATIONIST, NOW HE IS ACTING AS AN INTERVENTIONIST, HE IS CONTRADICTING HIMSELF, BUT AT LEAST WE ARE BACK IN OUR FAMILIAR LANDSCAPE.

AND WE DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST TO THE STRANGE NEW WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE, IN WHICH THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE NOT RELEVANT TO WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

TRUMP IS PLANNING, APPARENTLY, OR ITS RUMORED OR REPORTED OR CLAIMED BY MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO FOLLOW UP WHAT HE DID IN VENEZUELA BY DOING A PEARL HARBOR ON DENMARK.

NOW, WHATEVER THAT IS, IT'S NOT A PART OF OUR OLD ISOLATIONIST VERSUS INTERVENTIONIST ARGUMENTS ANYMORE, BECAUSE THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN INTERVENTIONIST IN AMERICAN HISTORY OF DOING A PEARL HARBOR ON A NATO ALLY.

SO, THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES, IF THE ARGUMENTS ARE AS CLEAR AS YOU HAVE ARTICULATE, WHY AREN'T MORE PEOPLE MAKING THEM?

>> BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME REALLY UPSETTING THINGS THAT WE DON'T LIKE TO THINK ABOUT.

IT IS CORRUPT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS GOING ON.

IT IS VERY UPSETTING, WE DON'T HAVE A PRESIDENCY THAT HAS SCANDALS, WE HAVE A SCANDAL THAT IS RUNNING A PRESIDENCY.

THAT THE SCANDAL IS THE STORY.

AND THERE ARE MANY SCANDALS, THERE IS ONE BIG SCANDAL, WHICH IS A PRESIDENT AND HIS FAMILY USING THE OFFICE FOR SELF- ENRICHMENT ON A SCALE NOT ONLY EVER SEEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BUT IN ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AT ALL.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK TO POST-SOVIET UNION TO SEE COMPARABLE BILLION- DOLLAR SCALES OF SELF- ENRICHMENT.

AND WE WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE COUNTRY WE GREW UP IN, THAT WE LOVED INSTITUTIONS WE REVERE ARE THERE.

AND IT'S JUST HARD, IT'S JUST HARD TO TAKE ON THE SCALE OF WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS, ESPECIALLY IN THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND SINCE JANUARY 2016.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES OF AMERICA'S CULTURE RIGHT NOW IS JUST A CYNICISM ABOUT EVERYTHING.

I MEAN, THERE IS ONE SORT OF THEORY ABOUT THE LOSS OF CONFIDENCE IN THE LEGACY MEDIA, FOR EXAMPLE.

IS THIS TOO NEGATIVE, TOO CYNICAL?

YOU'RE SAYING IT'S THE OPPOSITE.

THERE IS A SORT OF WILLINGNESS --AN UNWILLINGNESS TO REALLY SEE SOMETHING AS CLEARLY AS IT NEEDS TO BE SEEN, TO BE AS NEGATIVE AS THE MOMENT CALLS FOR.

>> AND PRO-INSTITUTIONAL AMERICA, ESPECIALLY --I MEAN, PEOPLE WHO WATCH A PROGRAM LIKE THIS, WE ARE OLDER.

REMEMBER MANY PRESIDENTS.

WE REMEMBER AN AMERICA THAT FOR MOST OF US, IT HAS BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR US.

WE REMEMBER THAT AMERICA HAS BEEN A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD.

WE REMEMBER COMING DOWN TO THE BERLIN WALL.

WE REMEMBER DEMOCRACY IN THE 1990s, WE REMEMBER THE END OF APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA AND TAIWAN AND SOUTH KOREA BECOMING DEMOCRACIES, MEXICO TURNING INTO A MULTIPARTY DEMOCRACY.

FOR ME, THAT IS YESTERDAY.

AND WE REMEMBER A UNITED STATES IN WHICH THERE IS DIGNITY.

AND HOWEVER FOULMOUTHED POLITICIANS ARE IN PRIVATE, WHEN THEY APPEAR IN PUBLIC, THEIR DIGNIFIED.

IF SOMEONE DIES, THEY DON'T MOCK THE DEAD.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WHEN SOMEONE DIES AND THE MOST TRAGIC, HORRIFIC WAY, HIS INSTINCT IS LET ME GO MOCK THAT PERSON.

THE FAMILY IS NOT MISERABLE ENOUGH, LET ME SEE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN ADD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THE FAMILY'S MISERY.

IT IS HARD TO ADJUST TO THAT WORLD, WE DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

SO, IT IS EASY FOR US IN PRO- INSTITUTIONAL AMERICA TO SAY THE REAL STORY IS WHAT MARCO RUBIO IS SAYING TO THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR, BECAUSE THAT FEELS LIKE AMERICA AS WE KNEW IT.

>> WHAT SHOULD MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BE DOING RIGHT NOW?

>> IF I HAD ONE WISH, I WOULD HAVE A JOINT HOUSE AND SENATE RESOLUTION SAYING ANY PRESIDENTIAL ORDER TO ATTACK THE NATO ORDER IS AN ILLEGAL ORDER AND IS AN ACT OF OBEYING AN ILLEGAL ORDER.

TREATIES OF THE UNITED STATES ARE THE LAW OF THE LAND, ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION, A TREATY IS EVERY BIT AS MUCH A LAW AS A STATUTE.

AND IF HE ORDERS TO ATTACK A NATO ALLY WITH FIRST --THAT IS A NATO ORDER, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CONNOR'S PAST THAT POINT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CONGRESS PASS A RESOLUTION RECOGNIZING THE WINNER, GONZALEZ, THE WINNER OF THE 2024 ELECTION, THE PERSON RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ALMOST ALL OF AMERICA'S ALLIES AND COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA AS THE RIGHTFUL PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA.

LIKE TO SEE THEM PUT SOME MUSCLE BEHIND THAT.

YOU DON'T WANT TO SEND TROOPS TO VENEZUELA, BUT THE GOAL SHOULD BE TO BRING GONZALEZ TO LAWFUL POWER.

AND IN A NEGOTIATED WAY.

SO, THAT WOULD BE THE BEST OUTCOME, BUT YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING, AND BRINGING THE PROPER LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA TO POWER, THAT SHOULD BE THE AMERICAN GOAL, NOT EMPOWERING THE NEXT DICTATOR IN LINE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SO RELUCTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS ELECTION, WHICH AS YOU POINTED OUT, MOST GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE DONE ?

>> WELL, THERE MAY BE A LOT OF PETTY REASONS, BUT I THINK THERE IS ONE BIG ONE.

IF YOU TOOK THIS IDEA SERIOUSLY, HE WOULD BE SIGNING UP FOR A BIG CHALLENGE.

VENEZUELA WAS A VERY SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY FROM THE 1950s TO 1990s.

IT FELL UNDER DISREPAIR UNDER CHAVEZ AND UNDER CHAOS .

THAT IS A BIG PROJECT.

IT ALSO MEANS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO STOP AND SEE THE QUARTER OF THE COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN DRIVEN INTO EXILE.

8 MILLION PEOPLE.

BY THE WAY, THE LARGEST GROUP OF THEM IN COLUMBIA, BUT MANY OF THEM IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU HAVE TO STOP SEEING THEM AS INVADERS AND THREATS OF CRIMINALS WHO SHOULD BE SENT TO TORTURE PRISONS.

[ INAUDIBLE ] BUT IT INVOLVES SOME WAY TO SAY, HOW DO WE TAKE ALL THE CAPITAL AND THE KNOW- HOW THAT HAS LEFT VENEZUELA AND ENCOURAGE IT TO REPATRIATE, AT LEAST IN PART, AND TO RECONSTRUCT THE COUNTRY?

THIS WOULD BE A BIG PROJECT.

AND ONE MORE THING, ONE OF THE REASONS THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO DO IT IS BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO DO THE PROJECT A REASONABLE COST TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THEN YOU NEED PARTNERS.

WE ARE GOING TO WORK WITH MEXICO AND COLOMBIA AND BRAZIL.

AND -- WHAT I THINK ABOUT HOW THIS MILITARY INTERVENTION WENT, HOW DIFFERENTLY IT WOULDN'T HAVE GONE IF THE PRESIDENT HAD DELIVERED HIS MESSAGE NOT FLANKED BY HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION, BUT FLANKED BY OTHER PRESIDENTS FROM LATIN AMERICA?

BACKED BY A RESOLUTION OF CONGRESS?

THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN FROM THIS PRESIDENT, BUT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK, YEAH, ENDING A DICTATORSHIP IN VENEZUELA, THAT IS REJECTED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE AND THE DEMOCRATIC VOTE, BUT IT'S A BIG RECONSTRUCTION PROJECT, WE NEED PARTNERS, WE NEED FRIENDS, AND WE NEED PERMISSION FROM CONGRESS.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, I WANT TO LOOP BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED OUR CONVERSATION.

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY THIS HAPPENED?

AS YOU POINTED OUT, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS GIVEN MULTIPLE REASONS, SOME OF WHICH ARE CONTRADICTORY.

>> I HAVE A GUESS, IT'S NOT REALLY A THEORY.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES HAS SUFFERED THIS TERRIBLE FLOW OF DRUG DEBTS FROM OPIOIDS, NOT FROM THE DRUGS THAT COME FROM VENEZUELA, WHICH ARE MOSTLY COCAINE.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION -- MANY OF THE PEOPLE THERE FEEL THE STEPS VERY INTENSELY, AS THEY SHOULD, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

BUT THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT BLAMES FOREIGNERS.

THAT'S IS THE REASON AMERICANS ARE DYING IS NOT BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT ARE WRONG IN AMERICAN LIFE, IT IS NOT THAT WE NEED SOMETHING TO CHANGE IN THE WAY WE DO THINGS HERE, SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING THIS TO US, THE URGE TO BLAME OTHERS.

THEIR FIRST INTENTION WAS TO MEXICO, WHICH IS ACTUALLY WHERE MOST OF THE FENTANYL FLOWS FROM.

AND BEFORE THE YEAR FOR 23 '24, THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD BECOME IMPORTANT IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO ACTUALLY USE MILITARY INSIDE MEXICO.

ONCE IN POWER, IT BECAME CLEAR THIS MEXICO FOR WAS NOT VERY FEASIBLE, AND ANYWAY, THE MEXICANS WENT VERY FAR TO COOPERATE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT THAT URGE TO DO SOMETHING VIOLENT, TO STOP DRUGS THAT ARE BLAMED ON OTHERS, NOT TO LOOK INWARD, TO LOOK OUTWARD FOR A VILLAIN, I THINK THAT IMPULSE SHIFTED FROM MEXICO TO ATTACH ITSELF TO VENEZUELA.

AND THE IRONY, OF COURSE, IS THAT THERE GENERALLY IS A BIG DRUG PROBLEM VIA MEXICO, THERE ISN'T SUCH A BIG DROP FROM VENEZUELA, BUT IT WAS A PLACE WHERE THOSE FEELINGS COULD GO.

AND INSTEAD OF LOOKING INWARD AND SAYING WHY IS IT THAT SO MANY AMERICANS ARE HARMING THEMSELVES IN THIS WAY, AND SO MANY MORE THAT WERE HARMING THEMSELVES JUST 50 YEARS AGO, WHY?

WHAT CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE HERE, SO THAT AMERICANS ARE LESS INCLINED TO TAKE DRUGS, THEY ARE MET WITH BETTER CARE WHEN THEY GET IT?

ANTI-OVERDOSE REMEDIES ARE MORE EASILY AND FREELY AVAILABLE.

ALL OF THAT REQUIRES THINKING AND PLANNING AND NOT JUST ANGER AND VIOLENCE.

>> DAVID FRUM, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, BYE-BYE.